You’re a sea lion. Bye Snipy.
The deflection of those who can’t explain themselves
If by sea lion you mean someone who pretends to care about you, and your argument, rest assured, I don’t care about you.
I just want to know what the heck it is you’re trying to say by “hard.” Because I’m an engineer, and I like to measure things to know for certain.
Goodbye. And good luck pedaling your snake oil elsewhere.
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I think that it is important to remember that this whole argument was kicked off by a warrior who claims that warriors are the hardest class to master. Feral is an example, but there are plenty of classes that I believe are harder to master in a raid. I think you are right, in saying that you need to have specific framework for your claim. You example of a mage in MC vs. ZG is spot on.
The truth is, at the highest level, every class is hard to master. But if we lower that down to “How hard do you have to try to be successful” we will find that there are several classes that need to play perfectly just to be okay during the raid. Warrior is not one of the classes.
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Dont go snipy!
Not surprised that a warrior player isn’t smart enough to see a when a sea lion is trolling.
At least I know I don’t need to take you seriously and your opinions are worthless. Go play Era.
Ahh, followed up by the deflection of the lost retail player!
Guts, grom, black hand, arotrius, list goes on and on.
“Sea lioning” is such a bogus claim when it’s a valid conversational device to ask someone to give a fine grain explanation of their reasoning so that you can show them where you think they aren’t following things logically.
The follow up of player who can only play one class in one version of the game.
Ahhh, and the ad-hominem strawman apropos of nothing! You’re like a glossary of poor argumentation.
Let’s take a look at Naxx for example. Of the ~429,000 parses, 180,000 of them are warriors. This could be another reason why people are so sick of warriors.
The best warrior is doing 1,300 dps. The worst warrior is doing 371. At their worst, the warrior is still outperforming 4 classes. The average warrior is pulling 800 dps. So the average warrior is outperforming every other class not in the top 3.
Idk if you’ve met the average player recently… but they’re TERRIBLE. Imagine putting everything into your toon, mastering macros, getting all the buffs and consumes, just to still fall short of the average warrior.
I’m a warrior player only I’m allowed to make ad hominem attacks and use strawmen.
Level 60 Classic Era Warriors are the new level 10 alt forum trolls.
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Specifically with regards to Vanilla WoW, it might be interesting to dive into what you mean by this.
Here’s my gut feeling, if I had to guess, and I wouldn’t take that guess to the bank. I would maybe set up a test based on what we talked about above - rotational complexity on Patchwerk for optimal melee dps output for example - or dive into the WoWSims github codebase and try to understand Feral vs Warrior sims for Vanilla to get something we can actually measure… but if I had to guess:
I feel that Vanilla warrior in PVE is probably the most complex class to play in a PVE raid setting. It certainly is the class among those that I personally play (which includes druid) where I require the most macros, and have spent the most time learning and making macros, specifically for Vanilla warriors.
As an anecdotal aside, and obviously more relevant to tanking (which in my opinion is a regular part of playing either of the two classes) we can have a look at Elite’s Low Level Warrior tanking guide, aimed at players new to Vanilla Warrior and tanking at lower levels, as an introduction to the class:
Specifically, I’d look at the rotational and stance components and compare that to what someone might say about Bear tanking, which would be something like, “Stay in bear stance. Use Maul and Swipe if/when you have enough rage. Use Demoralizing Roar to keep the debuff up on mobs.”
Sorry, it looks like we both posted at nearly the same time. Here is what I mean by this.
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I see what you mean. Yeah, a mediocre or poor performing warrior (let’s say 15% parsing) in leveling/dungeon gear without any enchants will outperform a Naxx geared BiS ret doing a perfect rotation (let’s say 99% parsing) might be a good example, if that’s what you mean, which I think it is.
He’s a green parsing warrior in molten core…molten core.
There’s a reason he thinks Gnomer was “too much like retail”.
It is. Now the difference between the worst warrior and the best warrior is vast, someone earlier mentioned that. And I’ll give them that. However, we have a lack of evidence showing us what the “worst” of each class is capable of.
For instance, we have 180,000 parses recorded for a warrior. But we only have 1,785 parses for a feral druid. We also only have 294 parses for an Enhancement Shaman.
It’s possible, that by the time we get to Naxx, the “bad players” have been weeded out, and have re-rolled to more successful classes. I think it isn’t a stretch to suggest that the bad druids, shamans, priests, paladins, and mages have rolled Warriors and Rogues, and are making up for the lowest quartile.
If we’re now coming back to SoD, which I think we are, then I’d point out a couple of things, first making what seem like very reasonable assumptions is a very reasonable thing to do, but is also often incredibly and surprisingly inaccurate. Second, feral druid specifically in SoD, and more specifically on Alliance is actually the perfect role for a mediocre or under performing player to play.
This isn’t intended as a knock at feral druid, those who enjoy it, or even those who prefer to underperform (typically I’d point to people who insist on playing Ret in Vanilla - someone [Cauchy?] might point out that Ret is better than most things, and maybe he’s right). Anyway, because feral brings both Wild Strikes and Leader of the Pack, every melee party wants a feral druid.
I think what would be fair to say though is that there is a larger historical data set for warriors than for feral druids, but now we’re back to Vanilla, and idk how relevant any of that is.