Actually there were three patches that changed the talent trees, we’re in the middle of that.
Combustion used to be a 100% crit chance every 5 minutes (which was highly preferred) to the 10% stacking “never know when the crit is coming” combustion now. A lot of mages back in the day were pissed about this, because as a mage with pyroblast it’s more important to know WHEN the crit is coming.
Also the term “balance” should be used lightly.
With the exception of trap disarming in BWL.
there is a difference between “drop in representation”
and “being buffed the entire expansion and still seeing your population drop”.
your argument is dishonest at best.
you point out that pures were still brought to raids in wrath when hybrids were competitive.
you fail to point out all the changes that were done to pures between vanilla and wrath to make that possible.
you fail to point out all the non dps changes that were done to hybrids between vanilla and wrath to make that possible.
so unless we were to go strictly to wrath design (which still screws rogues and warlocks by the way), you’re definitely being dishonest in your argument.
and yes, wrath did see a drop in utility.
everyone was given aoe of some form.
everyone was given more self healing and mitigation in some form.
but go ahead and keep being dishonest.
Hmm… in vanilla there were a lot more than 3 patches that changed talent trees. Every class at some point in vanilla got a major class review that in many cases completely redid their talent trees.
1.12 was not one of those patches which is why I say the balance changes between 1.11 and 1.12 were very minor.
tristi is talking about between classic and wrath.
lets take the druid, which you play as a good example.
think about all the changes that occurred to the druid between classic and wrath.
now look at all the changes that happened to the rogue.
poisons were adjusted to give rogues some actual raid utility, they got a decent aoe, they got a misdirect…
I’m speaking of the drastic class overhauls. There was a period where no changes were made or very “Slight” changes - The current patch they chose is in the middle of the drastic changes that turned ret paladin from a support class into practically a God in PVP, and druids finally got an answer to their whining regarding forms.
This was a weird in between patch where two patches in a row the mages talents were changed.
I actually was talking about from mid vanilla to late vanilla, but same argument I suppose.
I fully acknowledge that quite a lot was changed for all classes over the course of BC and wrath.
There is nothing dishonest about acknowledging that some classes did indeed see a drop in representation what is dishonest is trying to claim that that drop was solely because those classes were suddenly undesirable.
As I noted with more viable options it is 100% expected that pure classes would see a drop in representation, but it was hardly some huge drop and those poor suffering rogues and warlocks never ever had it anywhere near as bad as hybrid dps did in vanilla.
I am hope for massive drop.
I doubt it will happen. My brother said all servers are high. So, it’s looking like a crazy #%^^ show.
If pop drops it wouldn’t be bad it would be like 6k pop on at once. Instead of high pop 24 - 7. I don’t know how many that is. 40k or 60k?
my bad - but the fact is
my argument - changing dps would negatively impact classes with minimal utility.
his argument - no, look at wrath as a good example.
what he neglects to mention is
warlocks and rogues saw drastic population changes in wrath.
rogues in particular got quite a bit of utility between classic and wrath.
the debuff changes + poison changes enabled rogues to actually use poisons, which brought stuff like MS and slows and use.
rogues got a misdirect
rogues got an aoe.
and rogues got cloak of shadows.
This is true, but then rogues were over all in a much healthier position balance wise than druids were pre wrath.
Right an argument that was proven wrong when it happened.
there is when you’re saying that wrath had minimal impact on pure classes and using it as an example.
there is a difference between seeing pure classes drop and the population of classes being cut almost in half over 2 expansions.
but go ahead and keep being dishonest.
hardly some huge drop. lol. both went from around 11-12% to less then 7%.
by the way - i like how you are comparing the performance of two CLASSES to SPECS of Classes when you try to compare who had it worse.
you’re continuing to prove why i call you dishonest.
you don’t do likewise comparisons at all.
you fail to mention all the changes that happened between classic and wrath though.
so unless you’re prepared to give rogues about 3 abilities they had by wrath to classic you’re argument is dishonest.
you say rogues didn’t suffer that bad in wrath when dps was equalized (they did in fact).
you fail to mention that rogues by wrath actually HAD utility.
which they largely don’t have in the raiding scene in vanilla.
but hey, now i understand why others laugh at your arguments.
because you compare two things that cannot be compared and say “it wasn’t that bad here, why would it be that bad there”.
let me say it again for the deaf (IE you).
ROGUES IN WRATH ACTUALLY HAD UTILITY TO OFFSET THE DPS CHANGE.
DESPITE THIS THEY STILL SUFFERED.
What do you think would happen to the rogue/hunter in vanilla if you buffed hybrids like you did in wrath but rogues/hunters had no utility?
oh wait.
i see no reason to bring a rogue or hunter to the raid except a few niche situations.
but go ahead and continue your dishonest argument.
This is just the nature of tightly tuned content. If anything mythic fights tend to be too tightly tuned, but they want fights that wipes Method hundreds of times for…reasons I guess.
High pop is 10K, original vanilla servers were FULL at 2.5K
I have never seen a raid that never had an equal make up of 5 - 7 of each class. We never stacked 25 of the 40 spots to warriors, either you never played in a raid and you’re making this up, or your guild was really bad.
Quite literally, the OPTIMAL speed run comp has 25 Warriors in it until Naxx, where you sub out any number of Warriors for Mages of appropriate gear level.
You don’t have to believe it, that’s up to you, I’ve been in and out of the private server scene for the better part of the last decade and have been feverishly researching things for Classic.
Balance druids are GREAT in raids
C’THUN and NAXX were the hardest bosses this game has ever produced.
If you believe either of these things, I’m inclined to believe you either never played in these instances, your guild was bad or you’re just making it up.
The only thing you’re even remotely close to correct about in this is that Druids could tank. Not just offtank, they could main tank any fight without a fear Mechanic just fine. They just had to farm a couple bags of a level 29 Mace from Gnomeragan to do it right. Which is flat out 100% -SILLY-
Enhancement shamans were GREAT in vanilla. Equip yourself with an arcanite reaper and get a good string of windfury crits and you were one shotting mages. As a mage, I have no problem with this.
It’s extremely clear that at no point was I speaking to the usability of any of these specs in PvP…
I wasnt arguing that overwatch was ballanced and I wouldn’t just for the simple reason that I dont play it enough to do so. I just dont enjoy fps that much anymore
Again, I wasn’t arguing it was… however hearthstone is honestly one of the better ballanced ccgs on the market right now.
Noooooooooo
You dont play starcraft if you think theres only 3 things to ballance.
It would be like playing Wow and daying theres only 3 things to ballance, tank dps and heals. Rach race has many different units, builds and stratigies that are considered when balance changes are made.
If you believe either of these things, I’m inclined to believe you either never played in these instances, your guild was bad or you’re just making it up.
I was part of one of the first C’thun kills, so yes. I did play in those instances.
The only thing you’re even remotely close to correct about in this is that Druids could tank. Not just offtank, they could main tank any fight without a fear Mechanic just fine.
Assuming this was true (which it isn’t, we never let druids tank AQ or NAXX as main tanks), you literally just proved the other guys point that the classes are balanced and druids weren’t gimped.
You dont play starcraft if you think theres only 3 things to ballance.
Protoss, Zerg, Terran.
Big difference between
Warrior, Warlock, Monk, Rogue, Druid, Shaman, Mage, Demon Hunter, Priest, Paladin, Etc. Etc. Etc.