AND YET HE DIDN’T.
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Yes, he didn’t. Because of what happened in Dalaran and the purge. That ruined any chances Varian had to get the sindorei back into the fold.
Now why did the purge happen?
Why was Lorthemar put in a position to consider joining the alliance?
It’s story.
The racial leader will not leave his race without being replaced.
The blood elves will not leave the horde in wow.
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That is what I said.
Honestly, are you okay? Feels like you’ve completely missed the point of what I am saying. I said that Baine had plenty of reasons to leave if he wanted to. Of course he isn’t going to because the tauren are an OG Horde race and them leading what have drastic effects on the game and lore. Yet for some reason you feel the need to reiterate the fact that this is a video game. Like I’ve lost touch with reality.
And your point is?
That you lied.
Lied about what? My opinion hasn’t changed.
Because the Alliance didn’t like my warlock here digging up corpses and cannibalizing them. But, that is vandalism and she was still a human then so…
Do not acknowledge Dreadmoore posts, do not interact with Dreadmoore posts.
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You treated him quite real a few posts ago.
Baine has a good friendship with ANDUIN. Not the Alliance.
Once again I have to say is this a situation that unless Baine is killing Alliance babies that he loves the Alliance?
Is he not capable of having a friendship with an advocate for peace and stability without loving the Alliance or hating the horn?
Or are you incapable of subtlety and nuanced concepts?
Just HURR HURR ALLIANCE BAD ME HATE BLONDE BOY all day?
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He’s up there with Erevien it seems
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Right so I’m just wasting my breath on a waste of space. Alright then. I’ll remember that.
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You stated that if Baine loved the alliance he would not be in the horde. When I thoroughly explained that the non player character will behave as he is written to behave, you lied and stated that had been your opinion all along, despite my directly linking your post to the contrary.
I’m feeling a bit confused about why Noranoth’s post about Baine’s reasons is the cutoff point for discussing him as a character instead of as a person.
It’s pretty frustrating that an argument could be made that Baine would be happier in the alliance, but I feel that’s part of a greater problem where despite what the game says, it’s done an especially bad job of showing why horde races would want to avoid the alliance and actually like being in the horde.
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There is no reason why any of the horde races would want to join the Alliance; if any of these races disliked the Horde, the game would’ve shown it.
There is no argument that could be made that Baine would be happier in the Alliance, his friendship with Anduin is irrelevant.
I think the problem with Baine specifically is that (at least until his upcoming quest goes live) his friendship with Anduin is practically the only thing he’s known for, coupled with the factions having become so morally imbalanced that it feels as though peace and diplomacy have implicitly become known as alliance traits, instead of both sides having more of a back-and-forth.
Even despite the game pairing him up with Mayla, we saw him pining for Anduin and talking about maintaining correspondence with Genn of all people, who is (relatively speaking) the closest thing the alliance has to a Sylvanas. We know he is/was/is-again(?) friends with Jaina. He’s welcome in Stormwind. To contrast, his connections are known enough among the horde that his own “allies” have used that to manipulate him twice, and almost gotten him executed for it.
I think from an in-universe PoV, it’s really, really weird for him to still want to be horde after all of that, where his intra-faction friendships have to be assumed.
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A lack of showing depth into his character does not exactly mean that void is filled with “I love Alliance!”
You guys are so hard on compassionate characters. Baine is wonderful because he, unlike many other of the more violence inclined Horde members, is prone to understanding that Azeroth cannot stand if it is ripping itself apart.
The fact that he and Anduin favor peace than trying to destroy itself should be admired, not feared.
Because I legitimately think you guys fear peace. That if somehow the Alliance and Horde don’t irrationally hate each other you won’t be able to find reason to exist.
The Horde can exist without requiring an existential threat; the hard part is finding out what that is.
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That lack of depth is exactly what I’m criticizing, though. The reason why I laid it out like that is to talk about how the game has used him, not as some weird pseudo-RP “Baine is an alliance lover and needs to be put to the steak (pun intended)”.
It’s why I state “from an in-universe PoV” in my previous post’s last line because I’m trying to sort out what a character like that might think, based on how he’s been mishandled. I don’t actually want Baine to defect to the alliance.
What’s personally ironic to me is that on paper, Baine is exactly what I should want out of a horde character; someone who looks like a big scary monster at first glance, but turns out to be a gentle giant who’d offer a hand in friendship. Hell, his upcoming quest is almost exactly like something I proposed a few months back if someone was to force me to write a Baine quest in DF myself (though the timing is off).
What I dislike about the character is that it feels as if he’s only ever been used as “the good one” when the rest of the horde goes bad (my real complaint), both to show the alliance’s goodness in treating him well and the horde’s badness during faction wars by abusing him. And outside of those roles, he doesn’t seem to serve a purpose at all as his content would repeatedly get cut.
Well, that and the atrociously bad timing with his writing about surrender during Rastakhan’s funeral. Not that the suggestion itself was wrong but holy smokes was that not the place to say it.
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So there are numerous NPCs in game beyond Baine that lack depth or have not been addressed in ages. I don’t see people going to them and going “Oh I bet they love the Horde!”. We haven’t heard much from Tess Greymane, but she isn’t out there avenging Gilneas. Are we dealing with a Horde psy-op!?
Obvious to a little extreme but you do understand there is honest merit to say that criticizing his lack of development is earnest, but stuffing him full of hyperbolic projections is not?
As in for in world perception? Well, 99% most characters would not know anything going on and also cannot read Baine’s mind. Sure, you could play a reactionary character who lives with his own thoughts of a character, but I’d be more curious the narrative causality of how an average (presumably) Tauren could learn all of that.
Sure, I get the problems with the Horde and Alliance. I don’t need to beat a dead horse either in saying that Garrosh 2.0 with Sylvanas was one of the worst decisions in the game so arguing it’s fallout is like arguing over spilled milk.
But that isn’t Baine’s fault, and doesn’t mean Baine loves the Alliance, and should not take away from an honest and good relationship with Anduin.
As for the surrender? Well, yeah. People don’t actually remember but narratively at that time The Horde was losing the war hard. They had lost all war fronts and all major engagements, were being pushed back on all fronts, and lost their naval advantage. Baine is not dumb and someone in the room had to suggest capitulation to save innocent lives. Read any real world historical book about warfare and you will find many in the room being the brave one to stand up against who everyone who wants to fight to the death. Not saying what Baine did there was right or wrong, but they were LOSING THE WAR, it said it in all of the quest text, maybe he just didn’t want more innocent people to die in a war that shouldn’t have happened in the first place?