The Alliance leaders are the ones with all the power. Velen, Jaina, Turalyon, Tyrande, Malfurion.
Neutral leaders are of either Alliance origin or strong ties to them, Illidan, Tirion, Khadgar, Kalecgos.
Horde have, Thalyssra? Maybe Thrall depending if all his power is back?
So perhaps the Horde leaders becoming a Fast & Furious group that works together by doing the impossible would at least be entertaining. Maybe Gazlowe can strap a rocket on a Kodo and send Ji and Kiro for a trip into orbit?
Genn Greymane is alive. Magni Bronzebeard is alive. King Mekkatorque (although he was High Tinker at the time) is alive. And yes, despite the camps being one of the reasons why Genn pulled Gilneas out of the Alliance, that did not happen until long after he had his say on the camps and what would happen to the Orcs.
They all had a say in what would happen with respect to the camps.
Ultimately the Internment camps were a policy of the Alliance, they were constructed and maintained by the Alliance (with Blackmoore appointed as the leader of them after Danath Trollbane left to reinforce Nethergarde Keep, who yes, is also alive).
And again, I’m not saying the Horde cannot be held liable for their own actions or that they should be ignored. All I am saying is that the Orcs do have a case for grievances and they can bring up those grievances at any time. There is no ‘double standard’ here, since you’re still pushing that clown reasoning that never existed.
So let me get this right Genn who voted against the camps is somehow to blame for them? Mekkatorque I believe had already withdrawn to Gnomeregan to deal with the Troggs so he had nothing to do with them and Magni isn’t even a member of the Alliance anymore but the dwarves didn’t run any camps as far as im aware. Danath had to literally leave his post because other Orcs were causing more problems and got sealed away on another world because of it.
Again, I’m failing to see how anyone currently in the Alliance bears any responsibility for anything that happen in the camps.
but hey you keep reaching buddy.
This is the kind of high quality future thinking ideas that I’m looking for.
10/10, where do I invest in this venture?
And trust, this will be my future transmog:
He did not ‘vote against the camps’, please get a firmer grasp on your lore. When the issue of what to do with the Orcs came up, King Terenas Menethil II believed that the captive Orcs would eventually lose their bloodlust, Antonidas wanted to study them and Genn Greymane and Thoras Trollbane demanded that they be executed. There was disagreement and debate on the subject, but ultimately it was decided by all parties that the Orcs would be imprisoned for life. Which means yes, Genn Greymane bears responsibility for that.
What caused Genn to chafe and abandon the Alliance was not the matter of the camps, but who should pay for them. King Terenas Menethil II wanted all Alliance nations to pay a tax for their upkeep as well as upkeep for Nethergarde Keep which was being constructed in the Blasted Lands. Genn hated this idea, because on top of costing many Gilneans their lives he was now being expected to bleed his people of their coin to finance projects that were nowhere near his lands.
As for Magni and Mekkatorque. Firstly, Mekkatorque was not ‘dealing with the Troggs’ again, get a firmer grasp on your lore. Gnomeregan did not get invaded by Troggs until Year 20, the same year of the events of Warcraft III. The Alliance began internment of the Orcs a good 13 years before the Troggs became a problem for the Gnomes. And no, Magni does not get to shirk the responsibility for his actions because he turned himself into a shiny gem and started screaming about wounds. He may be a ‘Speaker for Azeroth’ but he bears responsibility for voting for the internment of the Orcs.
You don’t get to absolve yourself of what you’ve done just because you swap to a different faction. That’s not how things work at all.
Ah so we are reaching then, righty O well nothing further to add then cause your probably start claiming that the horses that pulled the carts who were fed by farmer of the alliance are somehow responsible.
I mean if we start going down this path we can start blaming the horde for everything the legion did as they once served them.
Reaching?
You came in swinging, again, with incorrect information and I’m correcting you, again, because it’s clear you have no grasp on the lore.
Seriously, if you don’t know the lore, don’t debate with someone who does. In other words:
Get off my lawn.
People are really reaching with the chillest internment camp story in any media I’ve ever encountered. You all know you’d rather have the Alliance imprison them than execute them, it’s just one of the only shreds of the Alliance ever doing anything morally grey, so you have to twist it to try and make it look actually bad.
Give me the okay and I will take the Caverns of Time to the 2nd War and tell the Alliance to just execute all of the Orcs.
If you’re not willing to tell me “Yes, do it” then I’m going to assume you’d prefer the Orcs be given the chance to live, be given food and shelter, a wide open courtyard, and be depressed because of their own action of drinking a Pitlord’s blood. And that some local corrupt officials took advantage of the situation.
With them alive, it opens possibilities. One of the original intentions of the camps was to reform the Orcs and eventually let them go. Or what actually happened, them breaking out before that could happen. Without the camps the modern Horde would not even exist.
They committed crimes. They drank demon blood. They attempted multiple genocides against the Draenei, Arrakoa, and Ogres or enslaved them. They killed their own world, and began a planetary war of conquest on another. Where they created gen 1 Death Knights, summoned demons, and enslaved Alex and her dragonflight.
Imo they went well past the threshold beyond just imprisonment. So imo, what the Alliance did was merciful.
The point of this whole camp debate is honestly that there are Orcs who were abused/mistreated/put into slavery and those grievances are valid. Especially when they come from children who were thrown into the camps with their parents and those who were born in the camps.
No one is saying that the Orcs didn’t do crimes worthy of imprisonment. No one is saying that they should have been released or that they should have their crimes overlooked. Every single crime that the Horde committed against another individual or species is also valid.
But what Spanner McClown is suggesting is that the grievances that the Horde has about the camps somehow no longer matters because the Horde treated prisoners poorly themselves many years later. Which isn’t how anything works with respect to grievances and being wronged. That’s what I’m pushing back against, while pointing out (correctly) that the Alliance and some of its leadership still bears responsibility for what they did.
At least their guild name is on point because they have been hostile, while being wrong, for most of their interactions in this thread.
People do forget the camps were prisons first and foremost for the orcs, not a summer camps.
All those incarcerated had committed terrible war crimes. Those “children” who were locked up and it wouldn’t have been many as Orc warlocks had rapid aged them to turn them into adults then they were all hopped up on demon blood and directed to kill people.
Those who were born into prisons can only blame their parents for getting either pregnant while waging a genocidal campaign or getting pregnant in the camp. There was nothing the Alliance could do about that.
The Orc’s have no one to blame but themselves for being put in that situation. Some people are just trying to jump through hoops to try justify that orcs should hate the Alliance because of the camps which i’ve just pointed out the hyporcrisy of such a statement.
I think part of the problem has been how the writers seemed so weirdly gleeful towards adding to the Horde’s Atrocity Count while at the same time whitewashing any actual morally grey action the Alliance took regardless of how understandable it would have been to make them look good.
“Okay, for the next Faction War, we’re going to have the Horde abduct, ####, kill, and eat all the children in the entire universe. Meanwhile, the Alliance purposefully steps on an ant.”
“WHAT!? Don’t be so sick and extreme! Make sure that the Alliance accidently steps on that ant!”
It’s like they genuinely find the idea that maybe Horde players don’t want to always play stupid psychos and the Alliance players are willing to get their hands dirty, especially if it means actually paying back the Horde for their latest self-defeatingly stupid act of moral bankruptcy deeply confusing and frightening.
What is worse, the original sin or the reprisal sin?
For Horde with amnesia or started their Warcraft journey in Warcraft 3, they will say the camps are the worse thing ever and argue from an IRL moral stance citing historical events.
Alliance players, who are ripe with both old and fresh numerous accounts of Horde (and especially ORC) atrocities will remind that the Orcs are the instigators and remind that, for every Orc that died in the camps, how many Human women and children died in Stormwind and the Second War?
It goes on and on, back and forth. Horde players always go back to the Internment Camps like a well tapped well, the place of “gotcha!” for Alliance Sin, as if that was the original one. As if the Humans marched through the Dark Portal, gathered up a bunch of peaceful and tribal natives, brought them to Azeroth and enslaved them. It gives Horde players a sense of “Other”, and being “The Underdog”, and being the “Scrappy Underdog fighting against the Power Figure”.
The original sin is that the Horde have been and always been the originator. The aggressor. The Imperialistic invader. The murderer of thousands of innocents in a bloodthirsting rage.
That does not mean they “deserve” to be enslaved, just as Humanity did not deserve to be slaughtered and colonized by outwardly invaders.
Many argue for ‘If / Then’ situations, which doesn’t work. Horde players often poorly try to use their ‘original sin’ argument to desire the Alliance to recognize with some (often IRL slanted) racism and xenophobia.
The Alliance players, all too often the victim of Horde atrocities, do not feel they deserve to be brought to task for imagined slights when they were never the aggressors. Especially so when they believe the Horde (Specifically Orcs) have never truly had to recognize or come to term with their crimes.
And none ever will. No one will ever fairly become judged for their crimes in this game, because real players play the game. No In-Universe reckoning will ever occur to make anyone be the bad guy because, in truth, we’re all bad. Every side is the aggressor and the faction war, and it’s fervent desire and players consistently ‘othering’ each other in a pissing contest of ‘who gets more attention’ will make sure nothing ever happens.
Because if the Orcs are ever made accountable for anything, the non-story Horde won’t care or understand, and the minority of story horde will go to twitter to cry various malaise.
And to make Humans truly account for something, well, other than going the same exact way as above will seem forced, about twenty years too late, and not reckon well with the story of modern WoW which has shown basically no misbegotten traits.
Because the players aren’t supposed to be bad. You’re the hero.
Even when you’re committing genocides, you’re the hero.
I hate to say it, but we live in a bubble. The story focused people are quite small (yet vocal) and there is a massive, massive, massive crowd of people who play the Horde entirely to be ‘the bad guys’ and loved it tremendously when things like Teldrassil happened.
For every literal racist Scarlet RPer that Twitteroth condemns for the entirety of the Alliance, I alone could share all the times raid groups of Horde did some pretty disgusting things.
This isn’t a condemnation of your or anyone’s belief, just we’re all small fish so it’ll be hard for your casual dudebro gamer to accept outright change - because they love when the Horde does a warcrime.
I think playing the “we are all bad guys” is stupid. Like, the Alliance was never perfect, but it was better then Horde. Hell, Chronicles even goes and says “The capacity for mercy proved the Alliance was more civilized and honorable then the Horde”.
You know why this happens? It is because for the most part doesn’t care about the Horde. That they are mature nations do not care about expansionism and would prefer to protect what they already had.(with maybe the only exception being Lordaeron but even then there were other things driving that concern)
There was a vote, and while I don’t know how the vote went. It was state that it actually Varian who gave the tie breaking vote to not execute them.
Well… actually we can somewhat blame the players for this, because Blizzard tried to turn the Alliance into genuine monsters committing war crimes during the fourth war but people complained about what they were seeing and Blizzard subsequently changed it to make it less impactful.
One of the big things that we were supposed to see, for example, were Purge Squads that were in Vol’dun, and these Purge Squads would be torching Vulpera caravans and exterminating the Horde. Which is absolutely abominable and it should never be applauded, but it would definitely allow the Horde to point at what the Alliance did and call them monsters.
But that never got out of beta.
Yeah but the Horde also had literal concentration camps in Ashenvale during the War of Thorns which got removed.
So, you know, Alliance wasn’t the only benefit from dev changes.
True, very true.
But what seems to happen is that we have a player base that can’t make up their minds, at least when it comes to the Alliance.
They WANT the Alliance to be villains, to finally become villain bat material that makes the Horde want to hate them, but when Blizzard does finally add something that the Alliance does that is truly horrifying and abominable, it suddenly becomes ‘too much’ and demands are for that content to be removed.
And when that ultimately happens, then the complaints start again about how the Alliance need to become villain bat material.
If I was a Blizzard developer I’d be screaming “Make up your damn minds.” more times than I’d care to admit.
I legitimately don’t think there are many vocal Alliance players who actually want a villain bat. Me going along and humoring your generalization with one of my own, the VAST and I mean VAST majority of people - if not all! - I see arguing for an Alliance villain bat are what the cool kids say to be ‘Horde Mains’. Go look at the recent Twitter discourse and it’s primarily a who’s who of blatantly biased Horde players wanting their turn to turn their head canon into reality when it comes to the Alliance.
Again, following your generalization, most Alliance players really had no enjoyment of being on the receiving end of any genocides and aren’t exactly desiring the reverse. Because, knowing the Alliance’s luck and how poorly they fair when it comes to Cities being destroyed, a “Siege of Stormwind” would more than likely involve much longer and negative changes than Siege of Orgrimmar ever did.
Heck, even in this thread alone the vast majority if not all are arguing a villain bat are Horde aligned folk.
But yeah, players arent writers and the WoW writers are generally discouraged from reading fanfiction so it’s all a moot point.
I do find that it is because “some” of the Horde fan base reaction to any time the Alliance does anything to them it is quite hostile. Even when the Alliance is pulling its punches the reaction from a few horde has quite a vitrol.
On the Alliance side you do have players who prefer to remain the morally right faction but that is generally a handful as well. There are very few I find who are out to wipe out the other faction.
Most players sit in the middle and want a balance of both. We want conflict but where conflict makes sense. take for example the Vulpera “purge” squads, why would the Alliance be attacking the Vulpera? why are they burning them alive? what is the Alliances motivations for doing this? It made no sense to create that conflict. Same with the War of thorns, The reasoning behind it was so inherently flawed it made no sense.
we want a war where we can see each side making moves and acting like an actual empire not just blindly stabbing at each other for no reason. Some of the best conflicts are things like Dalaran or Stormheim where you can see the motivation for conflict behind them.
The problem now is that there’s no balance and perhaps never will as Blizzard doesn’t seem too intent on villain batting the Alliance or even at the very least, make the Alliance lose some battle only for the Horde to sweep in and save the day.
Blizzard’s current philosophy appears to be “we’re done with that type of story telling”. Which means now historically speaking, Alliance has kept their noses rather clean and the Horde hasn’t, additionally, the Alliance has won every war. Which then infers going forward, the Alliance has a moral advantage in terms of decision/opinion making, whereas the Horde now needs to just truck on living with past guilt and now perpetually finding redemption.