I thought players were asking for more in-game choices/player agency, not less?
The way covenants abilities are playing out - players are restricted to a single choice, and because the game is so diverse in how you can play it, the negative impacts that one choice has are then compounded.
So not only does the system remove tons of thinking, coordinating and planning with teammates - it also removes all of the combinations of choices that could be made between each piece of the game.
Discrimination is also further amplified - now, not only are people going to be excluded from groups because of their class- but also based on their covenant choice.
Choices matter - if we have them. As an RP player - my choice would still matter to stick with a single covenant even if everyone could freely switch what abilities they could use; and THEIR choices would also matter when they made the choice to switch what abilities to utilize to provide the best value for their dungeon group/raid team/arena team/etc.
What benefit is gained and/or what value is added to the game with these kinds of restrictions?
They did, but like children they dont even know what they want.
They want choice but at the same time they want to be literally optimal for every single dungeons and raid boss and to change their “”""“choices”"""" on the fly.
Instead now they are forced to actually choose a build that will fit ALL OF THEIR CONTENT.
If they are such tryhards that they are gonna level 4 of the same class so they can be at the covenant they need for x content, let them be, the game isnt for them as the lead dev has quite clearly said "People need to get out of the simming mindset"
Player created problem like some love to say ;^)
Bad players will always obsess over most optimal class and build, you simply avoid such bad players
An aspect of RPGs are meaningful choices, and if a choice can be changed on the fly to fit your situation it isnt a choice
Various other players like myself, Ralph, and a bunch of others have already shared the benefit - punishment to players trying hard to play the game well in various areas.
We not only like restrictive ways of playing - but we relish when our way of playing is imposed on other players in a way that causes negativity and toxicity.
You’re right - in a flexible system, we could still choose only one covenant, stick with it, and live with the restrictions involved; but this doesn’t get at the meat of the value - OTHERS also having to have those restrictions placed on them.
See what I mean Arya? You’re either punished in terms of playing suboptimally - or you have to waste time leveling/playing 4 versions of the same class to play optimally. All just because you want to play the game.
The best part - most of the players that dislike this system will still continue to pay for the game because of their addiction.
I have to agree with Crimson and Ralph - the biggest benefit to many of my friends and guildees that like the system is the punishing nature it has on everyone else.
Choice can still matter with a flexible system - but when the punishment is the core of what matters, flexibility gets in the way.
Also - I would avoid using this as an argument; saying a choice isn’t a choice is ignorant and discredits our voice on the forums.
Please stop - this isn’t about choices and you know it. It’s about punishment and consequences.
Each covenant will provide their own ability based on your class.
Not to mention everything else in their tree you have to take into balancing consideration.
And we know changing covenants is not something you will be doing willy nilly at a small price.
I’m scared of investing into an endless progression system and then having to change into another one because nerfs happened and rendered them into dumpster tier.
It might have to do with the popularity of Classic since you have to make important choices not easily reversed.
Anyone pvping has to take engineering to be optimal. If you want to work on another profession you are handicapped. Also constantly buying respecs would bankrupt most players so talent choices have some permanence to non gold farmers.
To me it adds player agency so I am in favor of it.
I am actually convinced you are the same person given how much you reference ralph to prove your point in the various threads.
I thought players were asking for meaningful choices? Yet when we are presented with one, everyone loses their minds over it. You will have a choice, what you want is the ability to change that choice at the drop of a hat and have there be no negative impacts for doing so.
That’s a big issue here, if you hate the game that much and cant have fun you shouldnt be playing it simply because “you ve invested too much time and have many old achievements”
That is kinda complicated, in the sense a choice is supposed to include consequences and punishment in its nature, feels like saying something similar in two different ways. The core of what makes this system great is the consequences which is what I view as meaningful choice, though I am sure that could cause confusion to someone who defines “choice” as something else.
Incorrect - if players switch, they lose access to the other abilities not chosen; this is the consequence of our choice. We don’t get all abilities - we only get to choose 1.
In a game with so many ways to play it - having the choice to switch those abilities matters.
What?!? I am not sure if you just failed to read what I typed or if I was unclear. My point is that people want the ability to change their covenant at the drop of a hat to suit the content they are currently doing. Which would diminish the value in them, this is supposed to be a important decision and not one you suddenly change because you are now going to PvP and want a different covenant ability.
But players would still have consequences with a system where you could swap abilities - they wouldn’t be able to use the ability they didn’t choose for the content they’re doing.
That’s why the choice argument doesn’t hold water and proliferating it doesn’t help us in favor of it. That meaningful choice could also still exist in a more fluid system - for the players that want it; they just wouldn’t ever change it.
In reality it’s the punishment that is magnified through the current version of the system - as many of us have stated, this is what matters to us if and only if everyone is subjected to it.
Considering during many similar threads there’s a big number of people supporting the current version of covenants I would be so sure the loud whiners who want to have all abilities change on the fly are the “majority”
But this is the value to others - your value being diminished by removing possible choices you could make.
Like Caelin said - it’s supposed to be “important”; which could still be a thing if a system that allows for ability swapping. But the value associated with the punishment would go away.
I think this is causing the confusion, I personally do not believe that example is a meaningful consequence, for me there needs to be harsh consequences for something to ever be called a choice, and merely not having all abilities doesnt feel like a serious consequence.
One easy example is the PvP DH ability - if you don’t have it, not being able to teleport to an opponent through LOS is a HUGE and serious consequence.
Like I said - consequence still exists; but this was never really about choice anyways, it’s about imposing the consequences on others and punishing as many players as possible.