And your other points are valid, and I honestly get that I do. I was just annoyed with some people pretending WoT wasn’t a victory. No one said anyone had to like it, but it is what is.
I do get where Kyalin is coming from though, because you know, much like gilneas, people rightfully fear teldrassil won’t be properly addressed. And it still really hasn’t been. 
I disagree. In-game, the Horde offensive is stopped twice. The Night Elves successfully stop the advance two times in the in-game event from the Horde side. I do not see how this can be in any way interpreted as a “curbstomp rampage”.
At this point, I would honestly settle for a good path forward for the Horde. I would take a hard retcon to the endpoint of Legion, however.
This is what I still do not understand from you. What “gains” are we “locking in”? The Horde has, as far as I am aware, canonically lost territory and every battle in BfA aside from the War of Thorns. I can understand that Ashenvale exists as a frustrating question mark, but to the best of my knowledge that’s Blizzard’s refusal to be nailed down on any details anymore, so it’s Schrodinger’s zone.
If you are talking about your loss of pride and enjoyment in your faction, I understand this, but I do not know how you can frame this as a “Horde gain”. If BfA has taught us anything, it’s that Blizzard is very good at making all sides feel like losers.
I think Gantrithor came up with better answers to this question than I could in the Redeem Horde thread. That said, from my perspective this “But how can you be fixed if you aren’t punished?” argument reeks of concern trolling. I am sorry if this is not your intent, but Blizzard has ignored far bigger issues with the story.
Jellex, this entire post is a dodge.
Night Elf players, certainly not just including myself, on both sides of the Atlantic, on Reddit, in social media generally have been just about uniform that the War of the Thorns was a humiliating defeat and a tragedy. The entire pretense build up around the revenge arc that wasn’t was built on this - and where we find Night Elf fans who were less outraged about the event or those who regarded it as a positive development, we also find optimistic statements that the event itself was just setup for a spectacular revenge arc that, as we are seeing now, has led nowhere.
You are ignoring this sentiment because it benefits you, and trying to redefine this issue as only one that you see through your perspective, again, to block conversation on solutions and to block any solution that would resolve this generally.
You are still holding onto and keeping this. It doesn’t matter to me if you argue that someone stole it for you or that you didn’t want it in the first place. You are still refusing to give it back, or even to entertain discussion on how it even can be given back.
If this is your stance, then I honestly don’t see how we can have a productive discussion forward.
Sorry if you see this as a dodge, but I’m not in the mood to get into a discussion where we repeat the same points worded differently.
Well, we certainly share that frustration - because I don’t see a productive discussion as being a scenario where I have to grovel to you for a resolution and offer you compromise and you just reflexively fold your arms and tell me “no” on the basis that somewhere and somehow you might have to give up something yourself.
“Punished” is your personal take on the thing. It’s not about punishment. It’s about the current state of the story that says that the new horde is better and the old one was a source of problems. Unless something cracks the problems in the current one, there is no real opportunity.
You can, of course, try to bury it by “punished” and other terms that demand negative emotional reaction, but that way you won’t get anything other than greenlight the actions / conclusions of the devs.
gl hf
The developers told us that the story of BfA was supposed to be about the “pragmatic Horde” and the “honor Horde” reconciling and forming a more perfect whole, or something.
Whether or not we “greenlight” the actions of the devs basically makes no difference.
Well, enjoy what you got then, what else can I say.
/cheer
gl hf
Yes and no.
If you say that the War of the Thorns was only bad because you were made to feel bad about it, and that you don’t want to do anything at all to fix it, then you are certainly validating the decision to destroy a playerbase segment’s investment in the franchise, even if you are choosing to reject the moral lesson that the devs tried to teach you about such a desire.
The “new” horde is still the same faction that ultimately supported a Word of God genocide, though. And you can’t avoid that connection no matter what horde race you roll with, because the new baseline canon is that characters are assumed to level through BFA anyway.
I don’t think it matters how much the story tries to insist that the horde has changed; you can’t shake that from its recent past.
Is it just me, but why does it seem that whenever blizz puts Honor and Horde in the same sentence, it’s usually a prelude to some atrocity the horde is about to commit? 
Or is it just me?
Because that’s all the story really has to fall back on, even though the faction’s basically narratively redundant ever since WotLK ended. WoW wants you to think that the horde is an alternate take of being a monstrous-looking hero but then treats it as the antagonist during faction wars. It says the horde’s about honor and freedom from oppression but it’s the faction that relies on underhanded tactics while being the aggressor, which is why Thalyssra’s line about it comes off so weirdly. It’s lacking in having world ties explored in favor of stuff like Ardenweald, and the horde’s useless in neutral content because it’s just easier to use the more humanish characters against generic baddies anyway.
If someone wants to play a heroic monster that made the WC3 horde concept interesting, then they’re better off playing alliance now. The game just won’t admit it.
This “Painting all Horde players as being literally Erevien” schtick is getting really old.
As much as I’m sure you think know what Horde players want and like more than the players themselves, you’re wrong. The WoT was widely disliked.
Show me where I quoted Erevien in that post. Just cause you don’t like him doesn’t mean he gets to be your meatshield against any and all criticism of your actions.
The point I think everyone is making here is:
Horde players got a powerfantasy, win, military victory, achievement or whatever else you would like to call it.
To do it Horde had to curb stomp the Night Elves and the blue team to do it. So far I don’t think anyone disagrees with the facts here.
Horde players got a story of self identification. A new WC3 reboot and rediscovery if you will for a new audience that missed it. It has been almost 20 years afterall. Horde is reformed and now heroes again thanks to Saurfang.
Now the Alliance and Night Elves have patiently waited for something, a payoff to materialize over this. Many Night Elf threads spawn from this need that this payoff be delivered.
Problem is anytime we go down this rabbit hole either both sides are yelling at each other of who has it worse or your general trolling, minimizing, “shut it be happy” responses from the Horde players.
We just concluded a discussion where your colleague made absolutely clear that they will dodge their way out of any potential conclusion for the War of the Thorns, however, despite offers of compromise from the other side.
I pointed out several times that this makes me doubt the sincerity of the claims that the War of the Thorns was disliked, and in the framing I set up a very clear goalpost. If you wish to prove me wrong, then stop stonewalling literally every solution for the problems that the War of the Thorns left for the Night Elves. Show me that you’re in some fashion committed to a solution that doesn’t just benefit the Horde - as I am in committing to a solution that doesn’t just benefit the Alliance.
Time and again, this was denied - and by one of your posters that I regard as being one of the more reasonable ones on your side. This I feel is a very clear demonstration of the issue. You claim not to like it, but at the same time, you are reluctant to give up what it took from us.
Hence I will repeat - Erevien’s issue is that he says the quiet part out loud.
Actually he didn’t the prevailing sentiment was: “Horde makes no apologies and doesn’t owe you a damn thing. Horde’s rebuilding is not dependent on their interactions with the Alliance”.
And those comments were highly popular. So I guess this attitude of "we did not nothing wrong (the players) so we (the Horde faction, NPCs included) owe you nothing!
And this pretty much kills any resolution where the Horde is concerned.
Horde players spent a lot of time explaining why this wasn’t the case. It’s entirely possible to get a win without feeling good about it (see: Battle of Dazar’alor).
The Horde didn’t curbstomp the Night Elves. Just because your loss stung doesn’t mean we felt great about it (see above). The Horde are not heroes, Saurfang’s character was grinded into the dirt before he was killed, and many Horde players can’t stand him now. The Horde isn’t reformed, self-identified, or rediscovered. It’s unquestionably worse off than it was before.
You say you’re waiting for a payoff. That’s understandable, Teldrassil should have meant something, and Blizzard is trying. Poorly.
The trouble is there has already been victories by the Alliance and even the Night Elves over the Horde. Were they unsatisfying? Given what I have been led to believe, yes, very. That is unfortunate. Our victories were also unsatisfying. So my question has to be, given that everyone came out of BfA with loose plot threads and issues with the plot, why is it that the Horde has to be beaten up again, if everyone is basically in the same bucket?
If we’re all Erevien, then you all get to be Ainhin. Fair?
Not when I expressly reject Ainhin, and reject his claims to Lordaeron because I don’t feel that such is fair to the Forsaken - a stance that is in line with my repeatedly expressed support that the Forsaken retake their lands, preferably by force from extremist Alliance factions, as they rebuild their culture in a manner that I defer to their playerbase.
You and I are not the same. I do not repeatedly and actively stonewall what I see as necessary resolution for the Horde. But you and your colleagues regularly do that to me.
Feeling good is not a requirement to get a win I agree. I didn’t feel good about Lordaeron even if Sylvanas didnt blow it up in our face. Alliance was just so incompetent.
The Horde did not curbe stomp the Night Elves because you didn’t get enjoyment out of it? You realize you are confirming what Kyalin is saying about Horde players not acknowledging what a big Horde’s actions in WoT were right?
Blizzard made them into a council with new system of government and new leaders. Alliance hasn’t gotten anything close to that. We just suddenly had an emperor show up in MoP.
We are nowhere near in the same bucket so I reject that premise.
The problems of the Alliance are vastly different than the Horde and the conclusive Alliance wins are mostly seen in books or in interviews.