We reject Erevien’s nonsense just as much, but here you are trying to tar us with that same brush. For the record, I don’t think you are Ainhin, but I am trying to illustrate the absurdity of the comparison that you are making.
That not all Horde players are Erevien and not all Alliance players are Ainhin is one thing. That we disagree on your proposed solutions to Night Elf issues vis a vis the Horde is another. So stop trying to bring him up and attempting to force Horde players to defend him. Most Horde players think his takes are magma and hurtful for the faction anyway. Do people exist who think like him? Obviously. Are there Alliance players who have bad hot takes as well? Naturally.
So can we stop this nonsense of trying to paint each side as its extremes? Or are you going to persist with this line of thinking that “Erevien rejects my solutions, and other Horde players reject my solutions, therefore all Horde players agree with Erevien”?
Erevien’s representation of the extreme is something that we see parroted in social media and on general discussion (sources which are more reflective of the playerbase in general). For more specific examples: Sarm brought up for instance on several occasions a Forsaken RP guild that had role played making Night Elves dig their own graves during the WoT before executing them. Comments on Twitter exist to this day on officially commissioned Blizzard art of people volunteering to hunt down civilians - in the case presented: a mother and her child who were depicted as hiding from Orcs. As I was writing my most recent thread, Blizzard suggested that my topic was similar to one where someone claimed that the Night Elves deserved the War of the Thorns because they were xenophobic.
These are just examples that I came up with off the top of my head. I once gathered a collection of fifty unique responses from various sources in this same vein (sadly many come from the old forums and hence they no longer appear). Which leads me to ask - how extreme is it if the sentiment is this widespread?
Maybe the more pertinent question here is - what is the sentiment at its core? Well, I would answer that the sentiment is the desire to conquer one’s enemies - something that most Horde players seem to want so long as they aren’t being portrayed as the bad guy for it, and something about which they generally don’t spare a thought with regard to how the other side feels about being on the receiving end of that desire. Here on the Story Forum, I certainly have seen that people are very good at masking that desire - but I feel that the mask does slip when they’re asked to reverse the effects this particular conquest, and instead of discussing how we can resolve our issues as a larger community for everyone, they choose to deploy every tactic imaginable to reject that conversation.
To re-elaborate since I went back to that old post of mine to look it up, but they weren’t really a “forsaken” guild. If my old anecdote is correct, at some point back in MoP, they pretended to be Korkron so they could have wartime warcrime fun with Darkspear trolls. Then they faction changed to alliance, before swapping back just in time for the BFA prepatch so they could do the mass execution stuff.
It makes me think that they weren’t interested as RPing in any specific faction as much as they really wanted to pretend to be the NSDAP and followed the story trends to do it. Assuming my anecdote is correct, because I admitted back then that my memory was fuzzy on it. Just wait until Yrel’s Lux Vult rolls around and I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s taken advantage of too.
Benedikt also shared an anecdote in the same thread about players dressing up humans as the Klan so they could lynch Jessie Jackson.
I’m a Troll player, as you know, but wasn’t always one for lore reasons. At first, I rolled a Darkspear hunter because 12 year old me thought they looked cool. I had never played WC3. But as I leveled him, I fell in love with the Trolls and their culture, always happy whenever I would stumble on something that would build them up. In vanilla, one of the biggest things that caught me was the Zandalari and the mention of this God King of Trolls, Rastakhan. From that moment, I wanted to meet this elusive and mysterious figure.
When Cata and MoP came around and beat the Zandalari with the villian bat, I was bummed at another round of massacring fellow Trolls, but again those mentions of Rastakhan were so enticing. Then came BFA. I got my wish. I met this grand figure who had lurked in the background for YEARS of my life. Zulduzar was fantastic, Rastakhan’s development (even with his death flags) was fantastic. I genuinely wanted him to continue to work to better himself for the sake of his daughter and kingdom.
Then the Alliance got to kill him. All my childhood wonder and love for that one character meant squat.
Where’s my compromise? While we’ve discussed the Forsaken before, never have you offered the Troll playerbase a thing. What do I, as a Troll player get?
Do I get the Darkspear unifying the jungle tribes in their ancestral home of STV?
Does Zandalar get to strike back at the Alliance in a meaningful way?
Does Vol’jin’s death have any real payoff?
The answer to all of those questions is a resounding, no.
And here, I hope you understand why people take offense. I’ve worked to avoid the conversation, but it may shock you to hear I do not appreciate being told me I’m secretly fascist minded, nor that Erevien speaks for me when I believe many of his ideas are harmful to the conversation many of us are trying to have.
So no, Erevian speaks my ‘quiet parts’ as much as Iskaar speaks yours.
This isn’t true, although I haven’t had a terrible amount of room to explain what I think the trolls should get. Normally this is wrapped up in tangential discussions - and I probably ought to devote my own thread to it.
I believe that the Zandalari should respond to BFA by uniting Azeroth’s troll tribes under one roof, and acting as a sort of “CIA of Azeroth” - arming, supplying, directing, and advising these tribes to start brushfire wars with the Alliance as part of a larger effort to strike back over what was done to Dazar’alor, and as a general response to them being hit all over the world. I’ve proposed that they work actively with the Bilgewater Cartel in this - augmenting their existing weapons with more modern weaponry to actually put some teeth behind this effort.
On the high seas, the Zandalari fleet should rebuild and should be a constant problem and a rival for Kul Tiras and the rest of the Alliance.
I have of course framed this mostly around the Zandalari, but I see a similar problem with them that exists with the Night Elves. Here you were presented with this grand society that people could identify with and feel proud of, and then Blizzard attacked it immediately and killed the vision that they were selling, culminating with their capital being attacked and their navy sunk. That’s something that there absolutely must be a response for.
And how does this rebuild my pride? What do the Trolls get back? If I recall, you have a scenario where the Night Elves sweep through Ashenvale and bloodily reclaim it.
You know how I read this scenario you just posted? The Gurubashi are stomped in STV/Duskwood, the Amani tribes are crushed in the Hinterlands/Stromgarde by the Humans. They gain nothing. By extension, the Zandalari do not achieve any semblance of their ‘justice’ either. That’s the eternal Troll dilemma, the fodder race.
The naval power means nothing to me as the navy actually gives the Trolls nothing of value in the realm of reclamation or pride. It’s simply something that exists or doesn’t depending on the plot.
This wasn’t what I was going for - and I certainly don’t see how, just taking Stranglethorn as an example - how the Gurubashi would lose in that effort. I’m also on record more times than I can count with regard to Stromgarde in particular that I think Arathi was wrongly decided. Are there limits to how far this can go? Certainly - just as I feel that the Night Elves should be limited in a reconquest to not go past Ashenvale’s borders.
Otherwise? I’d agree if they rose up and just got curbstomped it wouldn’t be a retribution. This unification should involve the trolls scoring major victories, and securing for themselves additional territory.
There’s nothing pragmatic about trying to feed the souls of every living thing, including your own soldiers to an insane death god who wants to tear down all creation. But I guess ‘Nihilistic Narcissitic Psychopath Horde’ doesn’t sound as good a soundbite as 'Pragmatic Horde."
…not disagreeing with you or nothin’. just being spitefully bitter about anything the devs have ‘said’.
The answer is because it requires the Humans and Dwarves to lose something, with the exception of STV, which is a zone beloved by many for Nesingwary and BB shenanigans.
You may disagree with how Arathi was decided, hell I disagree with that. However, it WAS decided. It’s over on that front. I don’t even want Arathi as much as Hinterlands, which holds the greatest Forest Troll city aside from Zul’aman in Jintha’alor. But that’s Wildhammer land too. With Grim Batol’s status still unknown, that would render the Wildhammer homeless outside of their Twilight Highlands encampments.
STV, on the other hand, is in the unfortunate location of bordering Stormwind lands and doesn’t even have a large Alliance presence anyways. You would have to make up and Alliance threat in that region, which is something I don’t agree with. BFA has shown us the results of that. To create the conflict, the Trolls would have to assault Duskwood or the Humans would need to assault STV, both of which raise an eyebrow.
I mean, we already have the Silvershard mines, which are in STV - and I don’t really see where it’s written in stone that Humans and Dwarves aren’t allowed to lose something, especially after BFA. I suppose at this point you can argue that this is how the writers feel, but at that point you’re not evaluating my suggestion on its own terms. Instead you’re introducing elements about what writers in the future might do in order to discount that. I don’t think that’s fair.
Regarding the Hinterlands - I think there’s room for an expanded, glorified, and fortified Jintha’alor and an Aerie Peak with no expansion of its influence.
In that case, that would require the Alliance to definitively LOSE Silvershard, else there is no true reclamation of Gurubashi lands if the Alliance are just putzing over for skirmishes whenever they feel like it. That doesn’t fit your pvp narrative either.
Assuming Andorhal is still under Forsaken control, Aerie Peak stands directly between Forest Troll and Forsaken lands. It also prevents the Trolls from ‘reclaiming’ their lands.
Note, I’m not even asking for both. I’m asking for one. Both have glaring issues.
Ah, so it sounds like you’re aware after all of my incorporation of content for trolls in my larger commentaries on PVP - as this point was directly referenced. It seems to me that you’re taking such an instance to extend your negotiating position.
Well, I’d say to that, that limits must exist. I impose such limits on my own proposals - I don’t ask for instance that Night Elves definitively win Warsong Gulch, drive into Azshara, or even maintain their positions in the Stonetalon Mountains. Hitting back should include an extension of territories and the accumulation of significant, onscreen victories - but the other side should also be afforded some counterplay. That’s a principle that I impose on myself, and I advise you do the same.
Yes, I participated in it. Though I suppose that participation wasn’t memorable.
There should be, that’s my issue. WSG is unique in that occurs on the border of Horde and Alliance lands. You can get away with your story pretty easily there. Silvershard is IN STV, therefore the Zandalari/Gurubashi cannot have control of the area for the battleground to continue.
Why does the Alliance have to pay for Gurubashi trolls and others?
The only trolls in the Horde are Zandalari and Darkspears.
And if you want something for them then what would it be? What grievance did the Alliance unjustly inflicted upon them that requires to be answered for? And what is the answer required?
They’re not clear about where precisely it is however, just that it’s a Venture Co mine - and you can stick that sucker anywhere given that they operate along the length of STV.
Sure, it could also just as easily be in Southern STV where more Goblins have set up shop, but I appreciate the possibility of it being on the edge. In the end, Jintha’alor or Zul’gurub and the surrounding lads of either should be 100% under Troll control. That’s it.
The Revantusk, native to the Hinterlands, are members/allies of the Horde. The Darkspear are a Gurubashi tribe themselves and STV is their ancestral home. The Shatterspear are members as well, but they’re a lost cause.
The Trolls are given nice things every now and then, see Vol’jin becoming warchief and Rastakhan before having them ripped away for shock and awe. The Trolls have a laundry list of grievances with many Alliance races, including the Humans, Dwarves, and Kal’dorei.
That grievance? Stealing land. This is now coupled with the murder of Rastakhan, which was an assault on all of trollkind.
And before you bring up the Blood Elves, yes that is something that needs to be handled. However, the Sin’dorei and Zandalari are now allies which leads to the possibility of a more diplomatic resolution between the Amani and Sin’dorei.
Come on Micah, I know you saw the part where I said I was only asking for ONE area back.
Otherwise the whole map would be for da Trolls, mon.
Don’t trolls have all those lands already?
If they didn’t how would we be raiding them?
Lets use Ashenvale for example some clearly Night Elf lands are occupied by Orcs with the surrounding locations destroyed. The Trolls do live in ruins but nobody is invading except NPC sending the murderhobos after them.
How would these reconquerings happen if the Trolls already have them? Since you are not making the all land is troll land argument not sure how this would look in gameplay and how the Horde player is supposed to get satisfaction from it.
Reconquering Ashenvale is easy to grasp and understand the gameplay potential. Gurubashi now controlling all of STV? Um where is the Horde or gameplay potential in that?
