Sort of depressing Skyrim has a more interesting war story and that’s a fairly lame “Freedom of Religion or Racial Equality?” question. Rendered moot by the Elven schutzstaffel who are the only ones causing the religious persecution.
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Empire all the way! Otherwise those Thalmor bastards win.
Eh, I usually let them tussle eternally while my secret Vampire Lord snatches up all the property, wealth, public goodwill and control of the region’s criminal syndicates.
To the point where nobody seems to mind him blatantly using a desecrated holy artifact to darken the sky. Because be fair, he also eats dragons. And seems to be the only one doing anything about the bandits basically ruling the countryside.
The fact that there is Horde fans that will want to hit the Alliance in any way they can doesn’t change the fact that to the other fans, its something very detrimental to their experience, so why not make it something that doesn’t shame the faction but is still a win that satisfies the tally mark counters?
BFA blatantly did not support the “hurt the Alliance in any way we can” mentality as all the cinematics are about how bad Sylvanas is for bringing the Horde to such a level. It ceases to offer much in the way of Horde fist bumps to those sort of players as it becomes “yeah, this Sylvanas lady is pretty bad, we should focus on her now that she dried to kill us all by dropping us into a sudden hole in the ocean”.
Garrosh even more exemplified that manic aggression, and he was written into being a fascist in criticism of such behavior on the Horde.
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I mean, it’s not just a tally mark counter. The Night Elves in particular were redefined into being completely ineffective, which makes them completely unappealing to play in a factional rivalry. Maybe this is me reacting to the way you put it, but I think you’re trivializing how humiliating the last ten years have been due to the devs desire to give wins over us to your faction.
More thornily however is that people on your side have come up with a clever way to block this. They have stated, repeatedly and loudly, that they will have absolutely no conflict with the Night Elves on the basis that they could never, under any circumstances, be justified in fighting the Night Elves. We can’t take back Ashenvale onscreen because that would make them look bad. There can be no compromise on the moral front because “everything will have been deserved”, and this fake impediment is trotted around to block exactly this suggestion.
The underlying reality is that Horde fans simply don’t want to take the loss - even if it would be resolving a dire imbalance such as this one. So an excuse like this is invented the moment that you start getting into sitting down and talking about what the solution ought to be. It looks like they want to lock in the win.
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It’s almost like Kyalin can read the Horde Playerbase like an open book. Bolding on the Kyalin quote was done by me.
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I guess what bothers me personally, is the outright and even sometimes straight up hostile dismissing of how NE and Worgen fans feel about the WoT. The outright toxic behaviour towards NE fans in particular is irritating.
WoT sucks, we all know it, but it didn’t come at the expense of your favorite race(in this case, NE fans)….for the umpteenth time in the last 10+ yrs. 
But here you are basically trying to cast us all as Erevien and glorifying in it. We’ve told you a billion times that a lot of us have issues with it.
Was it a Horde military victory? Yes. There’s no question.
Did it make Horde players feel good? Mixed.
Did it make the Horde look uber-competent and crushing all opposition without difficulty? No.
Like with the Battle of Dazar’alor, there are half a dozen details that, if you pay attention, undercut what Blizzard is trying to sell (that being an Alliance military victory) so that it comes off as bitter to the victors and stings the losers at the same time. It’s the same with the War of Thorns.
Are there people like Erevien who truly did enjoy it? Sure. But if you’re going to paint all of us as Erevien and thirsting for Alliance blood, then it’s only fair we paint you all as Ainhin and super satisfied with the Alliance’s victories in BfA.
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But that’s not what is happening here? You have often good takes, but this time I have a hard time to understand your reasoning. Most, here at least, seem to agree with you. The war did not end in a satisfying way.
If anyone (Horde player) is saying something like: “The tree had it coming, burn the elves etc.”, he is an idiot and you can ignore them.
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What made me feel bad was that my faction was complicit in genocide. My faction being depicted heroically for doing it would make me feel worse as it makes it seem like the intention of the faction isn’t what I thought it was, or at least the faction is genuinely happy with genocide and I am in the role of rebelling German in WW2, which is not exactly great for having pride in the faction you wanted to root for.
I wasn’t talking about anyone here, I just meant in general. How it’s popular to label NE fans NEFPAs, dismiss their opinions, attack them personally and such. 
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Here is my issue.
When you say that you didn’t like the War of the Thorns, but in the same breath you want to tell me why we should never fix any of its issues, under any circumstances, ever, because it would make the Horde look bad, it makes me doubt the sincerity of the first statement.
From my perspective, you stole something from me. I want it back. You’re telling me that you’re not going to give it back because actually someone else stole it for you and gave it to you, and while you condemn that I was stolen from and you feel bad that I was stolen from, that giving it back would only remind you of that, and that I shouldn’t punish you for what someone else did.
I don’t care - you still have what was stolen from me, and by demanding that you keep it, you are validating that act.
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I never claimed anyone here was like Erevien, I simply said people like him do exist in the world. This is a prime example though, purposely misinterpting what I actually said, to make me sound like some horrible person.
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You liked a post making a very unfair interpretation of my argument.
Literally doing what you are claiming someone else is doing.
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Kyalin, you always oversimplify our arguments for your own purposes.
You know what my perspective is. You know what I am going to say - BfA took from everyone. The Horde lost plenty as well. We had an unsatisfying win. You had an unsatisfying win. We lost things. You lost things.
I feel like it is impossible to move you from your current position of keeping score, and the conclusion you have arrived at that the Horde owes you. Your very analogy in this reply, that we “stole something from you and aren’t giving it back”, ignores the matter of significant Horde losses in order to somehow, again, frame BfA as Horde gains. This is the entire crux of every argument that you make.
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Referring to Elluriahs post I assume?
And you are perfectly aware that I am perfectly aware of just what was taken from the Horde, and what their issues are. You are also perfectly aware that I have in the past and to this day proposed numerous suggestions and ideas as to how we can fix those issues, matters that include a lot of things that I personally don’t like that I nevertheless feel are necessary to solve those problems for the Horde.
That is not a position that you and your colleagues appear to share.
Instead, the fact that we both lost things is repeatedly used as justification for leaving the Night Elves right where they are. They fuel arguments that no solution is possible, and therefore Night Elf fans should just pound sand and deal with it.
I find that conclusion to be wrong, limited in thinking, and typically self-serving. It once again causes me to doubt the sincerity of the “regret” line of argumentation. It looks like lip service that falls away the second someone starts to ask how we can fix it because even limited fixes require for the Horde to give something up in the compromise.
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Alright, I’ll admit I misattributed some remarks as I was reading the thread.
I maintain the points I was making, even if they should not have been directed as a reply to you.
If you believe this - and I sincerely, honestly believe you do actually grasp these issues - then why do you insist that the Horde still came out on top somehow and “owes you” one more thing?
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They came on top in a particular way - that is that they completely destroyed the notion that Night Elves were competent components of their rivals in the faction rivalry. The War of the Thorns, despite the elements that were hidden in transmedia narrative, comes off as a curbstomp where the Horde rampaged across two zones and destroyed a third. That notion of the Night Elves as competent contenders in this rivalry? That’s what was stolen from me. That’s what I want back.
Now if you’re going to contend that you want your moral standing back, that you want the Forsaken’s identity and leadership back, that you want Lordaeron back, that you want likeable characters back, even if you wanted Sylvanas back - these are all points where I at least can acknowledge that something really ought to be done about that - because yes, those things were taken from you and they should in some manner be restored - and if the Alliance has to give something up in compromise, then it should do that.
But again, this is not a position that you or your colleagues share. You have demonstrated time and again that you are completely unwilling to resolve issues that aren’t your own if it looks like the Horde in any way will lose something in the compromise. Which, once again, makes me doubt the sincerity of the regret argument because you very much appear to want to lock in the gains from the War of the Thorns.
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The correct answer is not always the best one.
The problems need fixing, step at a time. But how could the horde be fixed, if instead the story shrugs the consequences away, and there is not necessity to face and deny what the horde was dragged through and what it became in the process?
If nothing is done, that it’s just like saying that “warchiefs are bad-bad (and thus the original horde is incompetent) but now Anduin led us to salvation with this council!” It just solidifies origins of the horde as flawed, and what the dev did to it (changing it) as the right thing. There is no opportunity is such case for the horde to reject what the story dragged them into.
gl hf
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