They may be able to pull it off if members of all these factions simply leave their respective factions and represent their race rather than faction.
Whatever the case. I will be quitting if once again the Horde and Alliance do a repeat of MoP. So done with this afterschool dora the explorer moralizing.
100% doubt that. So far I see very little in this story thatâs âemphasizingâ that we should feel bad for what were doing. The only time I felt bad about anything is when I help killed a NPC Pandaren during an incursion and her dying words were âThe injured need healingâŚand so do you.â Aside from that anything Horde has done to the Alliance has been nothing but good news.
So far Sylvanas has done nothing wrong that would warrant the Horde to turn on her. Aside from tarnishing the Hordes aspect of honor which we all know how much full of $%&* that has been the past decade.
Garrosh on the other hand has given so many reasons to turn on him. He has had anyone that has spoken out against him assaulted ( the mushroom vendor in Orgrim) or at worst killed (Volâjin, the Blood elf and Forsaken captains at the Razor Hill bar) Garrosh himself slapped the very same blood elf in âTides of Warâ for questioning his planes. Alienated all his allies that werenât orcs and went as far as being racist towards the trolls, and wanted to conquer Pandaria regardless who occupied it.
Sylvanas has done NONE of these things. So far she has used diplomacy to get what she wants from the Zandalari and will be accepting them into the Horde on Talanjiâs terms. Baine is going to be RIGHTFULLY punish for the stunt hes about to pull who in BFA alone has throw more Horde under the bus than Sylvanas ever could for his own selfish gain.
So far I have no reason to believe were going to get a repeat of MoP, because Blizz did everything they could to convince us to not be on Garroshâs side, where little is done with Sylvanas. She has every right to punish Baine and Saurfang, and she has been nothing but sympathetic to Talanjiâs lost of her father and insure her the Horde wonât abandon the Zandalari.
This is a request that misses the point of the original post. It is not on the players of the game to be its writers. We have legitimate grievances with the current story, that are not invalidated by us not providing examples of the kind of alternate story we want to see.
But youâre going to be a smarmy smear if nobody does, so hereâs some examples for you to dismiss out of hand like Zuleika says;
(These are all for future stories or alterations to PTR quests, not for stuff in the past, or the answer would begin and end with âBattle of Lordaeron Happens Firstâ)
Instead of stories about Horde leaders conspiring to tear down their Warchief, we could have a story about trying to haul her back into line, or where they recognize that sheâs abandoned the trajectory she was on from Cata-Legion. Baine doesnât go to the damned Alliance with Derek, he smuggles him to someone like Nazgrim to be helped while the leaders conspire to control Sylvanas and investigate her appointment to see why sheâs suddenly turned the malevolence up to 11. Instead of killing our fellow Horde, we have a plot about trying to save/rehabilitate them - remember when the Horde was about overcoming monstrosity?
Saurfang goes to Thrall for help, and they return to pull the Horde out of this downward spiral. Thrall was the person who first brought Sylvanas into the fold, he can take responsibility like he refused to do so with Garrosh until it was way too late. Instead of killing Horde, we could have a quest where the Alliance (or a splinter faction, if they have to stay lily white) have sent spies to try and assassinate Thrall to prevent him reuniting the Horde. We get to kill blue team and get mad.
The Alliance actually try to follow up after the Battle of DazarâAlor but they critically forget that thereâs no âSurrenderâ in â Victory or Deathâ - the Horde gets to ride out heroically on dinosaurs and crush the Allianceâs attempted killing blow. This fixes the âwar imbalanceâ that apparently exists without giving the Alliance an out from this warâs supposedly hard moral choices.
Sylvanas turns out to know something others donât about the nature of death, Azerite and the Shadowlands, and has a reason for what sheâs doing. It isnât an excuse, but it does make it âunderstandableâ - and though the Horde ultimately rejects her âends justify anythingâ philosophy, they can take up her cause, on their terms, as people with agency, not acting blind in the dark.
Jaina was a dreadlord all along.
(Okay, one thing about stuff in the past) - The Alliance suicide attack in Nazmir is not actually made up of volunteers. I find it eye-rollingly trite that the Alliance apparently had an entire army of thousands of people who were totally down to die in a suicide attack. They all say âWe were warned about this!â as they die, just to make sure the Horde donât enjoy killing them and to reassure the Horde that the Alliance didnât have to make a hard choice to get what they want - thereâs plenty of soldiers in the Alliance that donât have families they care about or misgivings about death to make sure Anduin The Pure didnât have to sacrifice anything to get what he wants.
Long Term: Trains V Totems. I coined this idea ages ago, but instead of a plot about the Horde choosing between cartoonish evil and nauseating nobility, the Horde can have an internal conflict where their shamanistic and ânomadâ traditions are clashing with the Goblin/Elven/Magâhar technological and industrial revolution. We could follow new characters as they explore both parts of their heritage, the primal and the technical. Maybe a quest where an old Tauren Shaman asks us to get their daughter out of a life of trouble in Bilgewater where he thinks sheâs gotten into crime, but we find that sheâs using the elements to soup up a racing car, but canât get enough power. In the end we save her from thugs and her and her father reunite, and he shows her that by not respecting the elements she will never get the full cooperation of nature - it ends with us piloting her rocket racer in THE BIG RACE. There, a wholesome Horde quest about internal strife.
Also, give us trains.
Never write âfor the fans.â It never goes well.
Isntâ that what Baine is doing? His actions with Derek by returning him to his rightful family seems like a good way of standing up for what is right.
Why go to Nazgrim? That doesnt make any sense.
Thats not too bad. But thats yet another horde leader that Thrall is killing.
I am fine with Thrall being targeted for assassination. Shaw can do pretty underhanded things.
But from the Alliance perspective this sucks immensly as yet another grievance is caused and resolved by the Horde with zero Alliance narrative payoff.
Thats fine and all but how could the Horde possibly stand against a straight up fight against the Alliance?
Jaina, Malfurion, Tyrande and everyone else would win unless they are pulling punches or are conveniently not there.
Unless we are talking about an epic struggle that the Horde loses but at least they go down valiantly.
That I agree with. Hard to empathize with someome when you have zero idea what is happening in that head of theirs.
I dont see how this is a fist bumping for Horde.
Validation that they are not the bad guy so Jaina is killed off screen?
Doesnt sound great.
Some moral dilemmas for the Alliance narrative which sounds great but nothing to do with the Horde thoughâŚ
That aint too bad. Culture clashes are always fun but this sounds like a region questline rather than an expansion narrative. It has nothing to do with BFA. why would the Alliance care about this? How are you going to make a whole expansion out of this?
I donât think Thrall killing Sylvanas is the only way he can interact with this plot.
Heâs going to the Alliance. We donât need the Alliance involved here. Nazgrim is an orc who was raised into undeath and handled it just fine, the guy might be able to help Derek, and heâs not Forsaken-affiliated. Makes great sense. More Nazgrim is great.
The Allianceâs lack of any moral indecision is directly related to Horde dissatisfaction with our villain-bat beating. The two facts exist in contrast, the Alliance never even being asked to make a hard choice does not contrast well with the Horde being forced into all of the wrong ones.
The Horde are a collection of gigantic monstrous peoples with a warrior ethic and a philosophy of âVictory Or Deathâ. The Alliance could bet their strategy on the Horde being forced to surrender, and get punished hard when the Horde just doesnât break. Real life history has plenty of examples of overwhelmed forces fighting and winning because their backs are against the wall. âBurn The Shipsâ is a lesson worth remembering.
This isnât about fist bumping. The thread isnât about the Hordeâs wish-list of âepicâ moments, itâs about the fact that the Horde story seems crafted specifically to demoralize the Horde playerbase on every front. And when it comes to re-invigorating the Horde, Jaina being a dreadlord would make me, for one, very happy.
Who cares? The Alliance donât have to be involved in every Horde story, thatâs just how it plays out. Blue team can go eat razorblades for all I care, I want more Horde stories on their own terms.
To reiterate, I couldnât give less of a fridge if your perspective was being fed slowly into a rock grinder, feet first. The Horde ends up going to the Alliance with every plot, just because the Alliance donât get to delete Horde playerâs accounts doesnât mean they donât have a grossly outsized involvement in Horde plots already which needs to be toned down or removed.
He is doing what he thinks is right.
Derek WANTS to go back to his family and handing him off to an undead orc is just needlessly cruel. Besides thats assuming the Ebon blade leadership want to get involved with this conflict.
Your sole protest is why Baine contacted Jaina to return her brother. Thats it.
I agree, if Alliance was going around slaughtering Horde villages you guys would have more reason to fight. But its gonna take a whole lot of losing for it to get to that point and I doubt some dialogue texts are gonna do it but I welcome them.
Better than nothing.
Hm⌠true.
But why make her a dreadlord? Is Jaina an imposter? Did she switch to the demons side? Seems pretty left field but alright. It would piss off a lot of people but alright. You like what you like I guess.
You cant make an entire expansion out of this? You have plenty of regional questlines for the Horde player to feel heroic.
Wow. Do you always put words in other peoples mouths to debate yourself?
I can agree with that.
Although on the other hand, Sylvanas is a symptom of the Horde enabling her and only choosing now to react to her actions.
You could argue that is true of NPCs. But itâs the PCs (players) who are suffering the consequences.
PCâs who were never Sylvanas fans or apologists for sure.
Victim blaming? Really? This is to meta it hurts, because both the Hordeâs characters and players were completely powerless in this example.
I wouldnât blame you, but it doesnât take long to look through here and find the disgruntled Sylvanas enablers.
For what itâs worth, IC Fairlight has a terrible dilemma fighting the horde. Yes teldrassil etc etc, but heâs fought and bled next to horde sisters and brothers. Every time I fight horde to defend from an assault or during an incursion I /pray them. Itâs a moment of reflection that - for me IC - is all about knowing/acknowledging that s/he and I are pawns in this travesty of a war. It could very well be me laying down in the mud, but I was fortunate enough to survive. For a little while longer.
Both sides driven blind by a power we havenât fully comprehended: Azerite. Fighting to control it. While it ironically controls us.
THe narrative for horde seems like it does one good thing: it gets the horde PCs talking and defining what it means to be Horde. Alliance donât seem to have that.
Edit to add: OP, Car, you write incredibly well. Iâve been mostly lurking in Story but felt compelled to add my thoughts. Iâm not smart enough to weigh-in expertly on âwho theyâre writing for,â which is your question. But perhaps the writers are using these two meta-narratives to see how internal strife can be concocted without going high-right quickly like they seemingly did with Garrosh.
All of the Orcs that have been killed by players were either Garrosh, or AU Magâhar. Who arenât members of the Horde. Besides, humans pre-cata spent leveling up in their zones literally fighting a civil war.
Soldier physique is one of them. Especially the Tauren. 12 ft tall bull men that could use a lance intended for horseback could outreach any formation fighter, as well as bear a tower shield. Theyâre also large enough to trample, much like a horse, and could break a formation by their own.
Orcs have more mass and could feasibly win in a shield clash when the two armies meet in their formations. Theyâre also taught from a young age to never fear death, making them the perfect shock troopers.
The Forsaken can survive impalement and sword slashes since they donât have need of their vitals and need to be physically destroyed. They can also outlast an army that eventually needs to sleep. Following that, they can also smoke out a location and not keel over from excessive smoke inhalation. It makes them the ideal species for hunkering down in a location and defending it.
Trolls have a great physique, arm reach and can regenerate wounds.
The Blood Elves are unmatched masters of the arcane. Only the Kirin Tor and the Nightborne can compete, the former being neutral and the latter are on their side.
Ditto for the Nightborne.
The Alliance has technology, but so too does the Horde with the presence of Goblins. This point leans a little more in the Allianceâs favor but itâs not enough that it guarantees them victory.
Gryphons and Wyverns both have their unique strengths but in the end, their presence doesnât change the battlefield.
The Hordeâs greatest strength is its magic. The core races of the Horde are deep set into shamanism. Their ability to call upon the elements is a well traveled road.
When it comes to the arcane, as mentioned prior, the Blood Elves and Nightborne are unmatched.
Lastly, when it comes to prominent characters, it can unfold in two ways.
If the writing obeyed the rule of one (in middle ages combat, all it took was one direct, non-glancing hit or one arrow from a bow/crossbow with enough drawback weight and an appropriate bolt/arrow tip to make the wound agonizing enough to stop the target from fighting on, if not kill them, either outright or from disease brought about by fecal matter smeared arrows, or arrows buried in the dirt.), it wouldnât matter if prominent characters showed up or not, as they could simply just be taken out of the equation from 30 to 40 yards away. This might exempt a few, such as Tauren, who, between armor and body fat/muscle, might actually stop an arrow from hitting them in their vitals, or the Forsaken, who simply do not care if theyâre shot with an arrow or bullet.
If the writing doesnât obey the rule of one (as it does right now); Thalyssra is as ancient as Tyrande. Unlike the martial arts, where skill can only carry someone so far before they inevitably are bested and laid low by someone that has a circumstantial advantage that grants them the victory, such as weapon reach, high ground, what have you, a long life can benefit a study, in this case magic.
Sheâs likely a force to be reckoned with.
Rommath, while not as old, is still a long standing veteran in his field and the successor to Kaelâthus. Heâs also more than up to task.
Nathanos is a highly skilled marksman and woodsman. The Howard Hill of Warcraft, much like Tyrande.
Sylvanas is a banshee, with all of that it entails.
Talanji has the capability to call upon the loa on a whim, given her close affinity for them (and in a more recent bargain, Bwonsamdi, the loa of death).
The Alliance might have tanks, but the Zandalari has Dinosaurs.
This isnât to say that the Horde will beat the bark off of the Alliance every time but they more than have the assets to have a Horde field victory be more than feasible.
Because by doing this, heâs compromising the Horde by basically surrendering assets to the Alliance. Him easing Derek out of his position is morally upright but handing him back to the Alliance is not okay and unbecoming of a Horde leader.
Thatâs in your favor. Drastic character changes are unacceptable.
Thatâs the head! Presumably where it matters most.
An arrow doesnât seem to matter to the center mass, if even Paxton could get chopped in half and have his legs sown back on.
Lol so youâre saying that those early 1-20 levels in the Human starting zone equate to almost every year of a Troll raid? Or an entire expansion about killing Orcs?
Iâm not even talking about members of the Horde too. This however doesnât change the fact that when youâre killing the race of members of the Horde, regardless if theyâre in the Horde, you generally care less about that race due to the fact theyâre the âbadâ guys.
An illusion?! What is Sylvanas hiding?
Well, that was basically her plan at the Broken Shore, except with Legion instead of Naga. Casualties were lighter than she expected, so it didnât quite work out, but hey, no loss to her, so why not try again sometime?