Who does Blizzard think the Horde player is?

[Frankenfiend-the-scryers]

We want to be the faction described on the box.

No we dont.

Some do, actually.

[Loroash-thunderhorn]

The nostalgia for a Horde vs Alliance war died in this expansion for me, I don’t ever want a war narrative again.

Also WotLK and Cata did a better jobs building up the war towards MoP then Legion did transitioning towards BfA

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

They seem to hell bent on what ever direction they are going. Alliance and Horde players had complaints for a while. But we still get:

The Burning of Teldrassil.

Sira and Delaryn.

Sylvanas frees Ashvane and acquires Xalatath.

Saurfang spared Anduin and wanted the Horde defeated.

Anduin said he can’t do it alone.

Baine is working with Jaina to foil Sylvanas’s plan.

Now Lorthemar is sharing his concern.

I can’t guess why they are diving head first into this. Maybe it is a set up for the next expansion.

[Pellex-hyjal (Pellex)]

Do we really need to be reminded that genocide is bad and pinning civilians to walls in front of their children is also bad?

Reminder that the Horde PC never pins any civilians to walls, with or without children present. That’s a purely NPC operation done for the sole purpose of making Alliance players angry.

[Hardwire-velen (Hardwire)]

Reminder that the Horde PC never pins any civilians to walls, with or without children present. That’s a purely NPC operation done for the sole purpose of making Alliance players angry.

But it’s still the current expansion portrayal of the Horde, as a group, which players (like it or not) are complicit in by virtue of being the Champion of the Horde. And I’m not so sure that the NPC observations are there to make us feel guilty for playing Horde side, as they exist to demonstrate that the Horde is not a heartless monolith of evil people revelling in doing evil deeds.

I personally have never felt like I was being shamed on my Horde toons, but when a particularly questionable quest pops up, it’s nice to have an NPC who is also going, “hrmmm, something’s not quite right” rather than reveling in it.

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

Well obviously I’m not going to explain the entire history of Buu, just the parts that make sense in the context of the discussion.

Point is, Mr. Satan introduced him to friendship which caused the evil part to be expunged and become its’ own entity, then it consumed good Buu and became super Buu, with the evil personality at the forefront while the good was made dormant.

[Pellex-hyjal (Pellex)]

But it’s still the current expansion portrayal of the Horde, as a group, which players (like it or not) are complicit in by virtue of being the Champion of the Horde.

But don’t you think it’s a little weird that the player is being asked to feel bad for the actions of pixels created by the devs?

[Hardwire-velen (Hardwire)]

But don’t you think it’s a little weird that the player is being asked to feel bad for the actions of pixels created by the devs?

As I already stated, I have never felt like I was being expected to feel guilty for playing on the Horde side. “Feel bad” in a more empathic “involved with story events” sense, sure, but I personally don’t feel like Horde NPCs questioning the actions of the Horde is meant to be a guilt trip. I think it’s meant to show that the Horde is not a mindlessly sadistic monolith, and not everyone is going to blindly follow Sylvanas without question.

[Maziodyne-lightbringer (Maziodyne)]

For me it’s the fact that they’re going out of their way to write dialogue to shame you for quests that are just like the Alliance side ones.

Like, quests where you’re empowered to kill massive waves of enemy soldiers are pretty regular quests. We’ve gotten them for years.

In the current Alliance quests like that, you’re fighting enemies that go “I’ll get honor for slaying you!”. In similar Horde quests, you’re fighting enemies that go “What difference is there between you and the witches!?”.

Like, even the enemy soldiers who are there specifically to murder Horde need to step back and moralize at you for a second.

[Hardwire-velen (Hardwire)]

Like, even the enemy soldiers who are there specifically to murder Horde need to step back and moralize at you for a second.

I expect the enemy to have negative things to say about me killing them. I don’t consider enemy moralizing - no, not even the Mistweaver we kill while she’s healing civilians - to be something I’m supposed to feel guilty over, any more than I feel sad when I kill a goblin and their last words are, “It…wasn’t worth it.”

[Yagarr-moon-guard (Yagarr)]

We want to be capable of pragmatic and even brutal actions when we have to, but we don’t want to be evil for its own sake. We want to embody virtues such as honour, family loyalty, and tenacity. And most of all, we want to be the heroes of our story.

I don’t think most of us mind being villains from the Alliance perspective.

While I agree, I want to be very clear - I do not support severe in-group loyalty over the ability to view individuals based on their own merits (as opposed to whatever collective they could be grouped in.)

Killing Alliance babies cause they’re “not on my side” does not mesh with my idea of morality. Nor did it befit the Horde under Thrall.

I think the most important Horde values from WC3/Vanilla were:

Honor: Heroism. Morality. Whatever you want to call it. The general sense of making ethical choices and defending personal and cultural integrity.

Brotherhood: The notion of the the Horde as a family. The willingness to view all members of the Horde as equals, no matter race or heritage.

Freedom: A refusal to allow the Alliance or other organizations of Azeroth to dictate the conditions of the Horde’s existence.

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

Reminder that the Horde PC never pins any civilians to walls, with or without children present. That’s a purely NPC operation done for the sole purpose of making Alliance players angry.

[Provengreil-senjin (Provengreil)]

They’re writing for Sylvanas fans and literally no one else right now. She isn’t getting thrown under the bus, she’s gonna be the new Kerrigan and will suddenly be savior of everything, a chosen one. Largely thanks to her crimes, somehow. She’ll not face retribution, Alliance will get blighted again and forgive the Forsaken, and the next expansion will launch with no one ready to enjoy it.

[Provengreil-senjin (Provengreil)]

We dont even know how it ends…

And Oh gosh you guys are just such good people, I bet you never shot everybody in sight on GTA 3.

Do you see what Im getting at here?

I don’t think playing a game how it’s ostensibly meant to be played is a mark against someone. A fair number of these same people would almost assuredly enjoy the triumphant tones at the end of Skies of Arcadia, for instance, just as much.

[Anyaceltica-llane (Anyaceltica)]

No idea who the Horde story is supposed to appeal too, but I do know the Alliance story is being written for Human Paladins.

[Moonweaver-hakkar (Moonweaver)]

Horde story is written for Human paladins too, they have good reasons to fight the Horde without feeling evil now.

[Jrake-gnomeregan (Jrake)]

I don’t think most of us mind being villains from the Alliance perspective. We accept that conflict is an integral part of the game. But we don’t want to be villains from our own perspective. Nobody enjoys that. And we don’t want to be written as relapsed addicts struggling with the meaning of our own existence.

And I think that’s the gist of it. The same can also be said that the Alliance should be “villains” in the eyes of the Horde. The two sides are separate factions for a reason.

The problem now is that they insist on writing the Horde a lot like the Sith Empire in SWTOR. You spend so much time fighting internally by the time you run into enemies of the other faction you’re just like “oh yeah, you’re a thing.”

It works for the Sith because that’s just how the Sith roll, constant power struggles. The Horde is supposed to be a ragtag band of survivors. Battling to the death for power in the Horde is supposed to be reserved for extreme cases, not every Tuesday.

[Treng-wyrmrest-accord (Treng)]

I broke my rule and liked the OP. I liked it on all of my alts.

It’s a shame Blizzard doesn’t give one single heck.

[Dakore-wyrmrest-accord (Dakore)]

The Horde is in desperate need of a heroic moment. That’s simply all there is to it. A moment so big it will forever cement their usefullness as an equally beneficiary group of peoples to Azeroth itself rather than a group that sometimes takes more than it gives. Perhaps even a moment where we even save the Alliance from a bad Old God ending as well. I wouldn’t mind seeing Jaina stand there gawping at some point and realize that if she got her way of dismantling the Horde that one time, she’d be either dead or worse.

Will Blizzard ever grant such a moment?

…I’m not going to hold my breath over it. That way I can be not disappointed when we get another, “We’re sorry, we’ll try to be honorable again” schtick when the war is over.

[Destring-ragnaros]

The Horde is in desperate need of a heroic moment. That’s simply all there is to it. A moment so big it will forever cement their usefullness as an equally beneficiary group of peoples to Azeroth itself rather than a group that sometimes takes more than it gives. Perhaps even a moment where we even save the Alliance from a bad Old God ending as well. I wouldn’t mind seeing Jaina stand there gawping at some point and realize that if she got her way of dismantling the Horde that one time, she’d be either dead or worse.

i agree with the sentiment of “a heroic moment” but i don’t think that is a good idea make that heroic moment depend on jaina or the alliance considering that we are in the “faction pride” xpac and jaina is probably the biggest enemy of the horde right now.
what kind of message would that be? “we can only be heroic when we help the alliance”?

but to be honest, can the horde have that heroic moment considering how the xpac started?