I’m not though. Your point is that Malfurion living made holding Teldrassil a non-option because, apparently, he would be able to use the whole forest against them. Nevermind that the Horde had just successfully blazed their way through an entirely different forest to get to Teldrassil, and they now had the entire civilian population of the Kaldorei hostage.
Malfurion living made no difference.
It’s worth noting that the Horde lost eight soldiers for every night elf combatant that fell, as per Good War.
So the War of Thorns wasn’t EXACTLY cost free for the Horde.
I think you’re seriously underestimating how powerful Malfurion actually is, the Horde did no blazing through the war of thorns. Every step of the way was a struggle because no matter where we went there was some ancient, some drudic enchantment, some wistwall that made advancing terrain a pain in the backside.
Malfurion WAS the lynchpin of Drudic magic in Ashenvale, actually killing him would cripple the Night Elf army. Without all that ancient magic to call upon the Night Elf army would likely fall apart, attacking Darkshore EVEN NOW is only really an option because Malfurion has the capability to reduce blight, otherwise circling around to attack the Forsaken lines wouldn’t even be an option.
Which is a consistent problem with the Alliance narrative, their actual army gets shafted because the characters are basically demigods.
Oh, I’m not discrediting that Malfurion is powerful, nor am I saying that his living was… alright, I said it made no difference, but I didn’t actually mean that, that’s on me. It DID make a difference, but… not a burn-worthy one.
Here’s the problem, I understand where the Devs are coming from on this. What Sylvanas did was basically what we did to Japan during WW2, their logic, such as it is, is essentially that as long as Malfurion lives the Kaldorei are going to be such an extreme and violent threat that between them and Malfurion the population is uncontrollable.
Sylvanas as our Curtis Lemay stand in, then makes the choice to burn the tree because the population is impossible to break otherwise. As long as one leader lives, they would never, NEVER give up on Darnassus so internally the only thing you can do is firebomb them into surrender.
The problem is because we don’t actually see what a Kaldorei populace acts likes under occupation we can only infer they are a death cult based on how much the forest matters to them, and that’s just a whole lot of tell and don’t show that you should never make the axis of your story around.
I know my cue when I hear it.
https://i.imgur.com/2BxXgHw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AZtsSf3.jpgThis smacks of underestimating Malfurion and overestimating the Horde.
Malfurion being alive and being dead totally makes a difference here not just from the aspect of he could have used the tree as a weapon or a defense mechanism to get his people out of there, but was also a really big symbol for the nightelves to begin with.
Killing him destroys morale and takes a big hitter in a land that is overflowing with nature. Him being alive means we go to Plan B: Burn it (or Q as Aemon put it).
While the plan itself makes sense, the gravitas of his death in fact does not. While I’m not underestimating Malfurion - him living would cause an issue, definitely a lastingly big one - it did not seem to be enough to warrant going fully to Plan B. If I’m underestimating Malfurion, you’re underestimating the Horde, and they’re full blockade hold on a very flammable city full of nothing but civies.
Had there been a heavier military population in the tree, maybe.
off topic, but you can post links if you use “preformatted” text </>
https://i.imgur.com/2BxXgHw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AZtsSf3.jpgI don’t know, remember the Wisp Wall? that was an enormous pain to break through, a nearly impassible barrier on it’s own. We had to cause a ton of destruction to even make an opening in that thing for a few minutes.
You are a scholar and a gentledawg, sir.
/pats
/treat
Thank you Darethy. Another such event could have happened had they decided to occupy Teldrassil instead of burn it.
Eh, that still didn’t work out well, because the point of splitting the Alliance was so that we could make peace with each of them individually.
If we’re having to fight Tyrande’s AND Genn’s forces in Darkshore, rather than having separate peace with The Nelfs, Gilneans, and EK alliance, then her plan’s already failed.
Our forces are just as split cause we have to fight them in Darkshore
Not cost free no. But given the way the Alliance forces in Battle for Lordaeron were routed before they were saved, it looks like their losses were more dramatic.
Maybe I’m wrong, maybe the Alliance fielded an overall smaller army to assault Lordaeron than the Horde did at assaulting Teldrassil. Maybe the Alliance’s horrific losses in Lordaeron were actually overall less since Lordaeron didn’t stretch on for weeks of long combat over hostile terrain.
But here’s why I don’t think I am. When discussing the upcoming Zuldrazar raid, the developers of this game talked about how the Alliance had lost twice, first at Teldrassil and then at Battle for Lordaeron, and now are going to be striking back. So from where I sit any discussion of the results of those two battles should start with the assumption that the Alliance is behind after them.
Off topic to us but regarding whether the tree needed to burn. We can naval gaze on this topic all we want, but at the end of the day, two ideologically opposed characters who are both designated as tactical masters within the narrative, thought it needed to burn. Precisely zero characters within the narrative, or developers outside the narrative have contradicted this.
So even if you prove somehow that the tree reasonably could have been occupied, all you’ve done is identify a plothole. You haven’t changed the story.
That’s not true, the Alliance all thought it was crazy and pointless and couldn’t think of any practical reason Sylv would do it.
I don’t think that’s true at all. Here, have a quote from Elegy.
Anduin was silent for a moment. He gestured to the map. “We don’t have enough figures to even represent an army this size,” he said, and his voice cracked. “Genn . . . they’re going to lose Darnassus.”
“I know.” The old man’s voice was kind as he stepped beside Anduin. “It’s a brilliant strategy, I’ll give the Horde that.”
Or would you prefer one where Anduin calls it brilliant instead? Because I can show you Anduin calling it brilliant.
The young king rubbed at his tired eyes. “The strategy is more brilliant than you know.”
Now, I know, you may object “But Genn only called the feint brilliant” and that’s true, but Anduin was referring to the divide and conquer strategy.
I’ve also got a video somewhere that has Anduin admitting the Alliance can not defeat the Horde without the Horde’s help.
You’re moving goalposts, Are you talking about Burning the Tree, or the general attack strategy?
Because everything you’re referring to there is about the attack itself, which involved the goal of taking the tree and holding it, blitzing the nelfs and the feint.
YOU claimed that burning the tree was necessary and that no one had said it wasn’t, and I pointed out that was untrue.
Astarii in Elegy
This was more than war. More than cruelty. This was madness and genocide and hatred so extreme that Astarii could not understand it.
Anduin in Elegy
Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide.
Anduin had known she was selfish—arrogant, too. Cunning. Driven. But he had never expected this. Through blurred vision, he saw Genn Greymane’s face as his wife clung to him, and he
realized that not even Genn, who hated Sylvanas with his whole heart, could believe it. No one had thought she would put her cruelty before her cleverness. There was no strategic purpose, no possible
reason to destroy the tree. Far from it—with this unfathomable decision, Sylvanas had united the
Alliance in a way nothing else could.
Fair enough, lets say we’re only talking about burning the tree. When did they call it crazy? Before or after they walked into a death trap in reprisal just like Sylvanas predicted?
Because all of your examples so far have been of people who were not privvy to the full scope of her strategy. They didn’t know why she burned the tree because they were either inconsequential, like Astarri, or the ones being tricked like Anduin.
That’s not an in universe contradiction, that’s the characters in the lore being ignorant.
People overblow Lordaeron, the Horde lost troops there too and more importantly we lost a firm base in the EK, moreover UC blowing up did nothing but hurt the Horde because Anduin ordered his troops outside to Brill before it blew
This is Blizz telling us one thing “Alliance Lost” when literally any reasonable analysis of the battle has the Horde losing a major city and the Alliance, while not gaining the city as they hoped, still cost the Horde a city, even if it was evacuated, all the infrastructure is gone.
Moreover, As you yourself noted it was a single battle rather than an extended period in hostile territory like War of Thorns has become for the Horde.
If Blizz tells me we won and it doesn’t make sense, I’m not giving them a pass anymore, I’m going to point out it was stupid and didn’t make sense and that this was atrocious writing that disrespects their consumers.
Cool story. Doesn’t change the fact that everyone in story who knows Sylvanas’ plan agrees with it, even if they hate it.
Your examples of people who disagreed with what she did were people who didn’t know her plan or her goals.
Now I’m fan woolgathering on exactly how a damaging a route against the Alliance army is and whether Anduin declaring their losses were so great that they were defeated means they maybe weren’t as harmed as we thought. But before we start I need to make sure you understand that you’re no longer defending, or even discussing your idea that the narrative has shown she was wrong.