We do see civilians outside of the main raid-path who are dead, and they are marked as things like Shoppers or that kind of stuff, they aren’t Rastari Enforcers or anything like that, that is my evidence, and as said, I am willing to show you.
They are marked as civilians, assuming they were combatants because they are dead is kinda blaming them. It would be like me claiming that the tree was filled with possible insurgents and freedom fighters who would have fought against the Horde invasion. It is not a good argument to make.
All of those are not good reasons to chase after civilians who are only trying to get out of a combat zone.
See I agree and disagree with this. Thrall should have picked Cairne to take over, its true, but garrosh didn’t need to go full on “destroy all humans” mode as soon as he left, either.
Sylvanas orders to occupy the tree Sylvanas talks to Delaryn Sylvanas orders to burn the tree
Yeah, that sounds a lot like - regardless of whatever her contingency plan was or whatever BS reason she gave to play to Saurfang’s honor brain - Delaryn got under her skin enough to drastically change her plans.
I agree with that as well, but his racism came from a place of insecurity, he didn’t want to be Warchief either, but he wanted to make Thrall, his mentor, proud. He was given a broken Horde and told to take care of it, and before Thrall even left the gate of Orgrimmar Vol’jin immediately just s*** in his mouth, and then Cairne with him blaming Garrosh for what the Twilight Hammer did and Magatha taking his honorable duel, etc etc. His racism came from those instances. Humans have always been on his hate list for claiming all the fertile lands and forcing orcs to live in hostile environments.
Her reason for wanting Malfurion dead was to break the morale of the Night Elves and to dissuade any form of rebellion. Delaryn has proven to her that the morale was not broken and thusly she feared a rebellion would occur, thusly a occupation of Teldrassil was of no benefit to her, her reasoning, stupid I know, a occupation would have still been better because: hostages. But that is how it was written.
No, we don’t but you immediately assume that all of them wanted to fight, which I think is a little disingenious. Because I could use the same argument here:
Sylvanas ordered the burning of Teldrassil because her main objective: Killing Malfurion and breaking the will of the Kaldorei, failed. Delaryn showed her this. All civilians up on that tree were potential insurgents and you cannot tell me that all of those civilians would have refused to aid Malfurion to reclaim Darnassus from the Horde, so I could use the same argument to say, because of that, it could very well be made the argument that all of them would have become insurgents and a threat to Horde soldiers.
Mind you, I know it is not a good argument, I know that it does not justify the murder of those civilians, simply because there was a potential that they may have organized a rebellion. As much as I justify the destruction of Teldrassil, the murder of the civilians is a crime.
You do the same with the dead civilians, claiming that all of them were probably combatants when we see the Dark Iron chasing after civilians who just wanted to get away and releasing violent and unstable magic in residential areas, showing that the Dark Iron obviously do not care for collateral damage or the minimizing thereof.
Because those are civilians, and unlike Teldrassil, there were children among those that wanted to flee. If you have some that fight back, sure, knock em out and imprison them, but if they don’t want to fight and just want to get the heck out, you should just leave em.
As we go into the War of Thorns, before we ever even pass the Wisp wall, she says to us that Malfurion must die to break their ‘hope’, or morale. Whatever. Sylvanas says this before she ever even confronts Malfurion, this is one of the main objectives in that Battle:
You are the one making the claim that the Alliance is killing civilians. I am saying we don’t know that for certain.
Besides, collateral damage happens in war. There is a difference between that, and the genocide that happened in Teldrassil.
So your attempts to compare the two is gross.
And it was still genocide, this does not justify this. There is a difference between someone actively fighting and someone cowering in their home that may or may not fight in the future…
No I do not. Because these are entirely different scenarios. One, we see thousands of people killed with no justifyable reason. We the person who killed them actively do it.
In Zandalar. A. We do not see any Alliance kill civilians, we just see bodies. B. We don’t know how they died, or if their killing was intentional. C. We don’t know if there were fighting back or fleeing. D. Mass murder was not part of the Alliance’s plan, when it was part of the Hordes plan in Teldrassil. Sylvanas went there with the intention of killing as many people as possible. The Alliance did no such thing in Dazar’alor.
That’s not really how it works, unfortunately. In a perfect world maybe, but the truth is, you can’t just “knock them out” when they are actively trying to kill you. And leaving them is arguably worse than gathering them.
Which is not a gross claim to make as said, Dark Iron releasing cataclysmic fire-monsters in a residential market area.
Grong being released on a city, a beast who cannot tell friend from foe and who definetly cannot tell civilian from combatant.
Again, I can give a reason, is it justifiable? No, of course not, but neither are yours. When you use giant flame monsters to ‘subdue’ civilians with ‘daggers’, which I have agreed are probably in comparison to dwarves the size of swords, and no martial training or experience is wrong.
And it wasn’t the plan was to kill malfurion, occupy Teldrassil and keep the Alliance out of Kalimdor. The mass murder was hastily added when Saurfang failed to kill Malfurion and Delaryn proved to Sylvanas that moral was not broken as she had hoped. Again, not justfying it, just adding the context you aren’t.
Anduin had no intention of this. Anduin is the only one in the Alliance who wants peace. The Alliance wanted to occupy Dazar’alor, the only reason they didn’t is because the Horde forces killed and raised their secret weapon.
And fine, if some of them fought back and died in the Dark Iron attempt to keep them subdued and lives lost to a minimum, I would agree, I just don’t see that when they use unstable and violent elementals in the open street which was used by civilians to flee a combat zone, they were literally blocking a emergency exit with violent elementals that have a habit to lash out at anything that moves.
So it makes sense that the Dark Iron would be trying to rally the civilians up for their own safety.
Again, you are speculating, and pointing the finger like “See, the Alliance is just as bad as the Horde! This is the same as Teldrassil.”
When the truth of it all is… No, its nothing like Teldrassil.
Civilans who are fighting back are no longer civilians.
The Horde was slaughtering civilians all the was through Ashenvale. And regardless how far ahead Sylvanas planned the burning, it still was part of the plan… where as the Alliance never intentionally killed Zandalari civilians, if they killed them at all.
Occupy, not destroy. Not like what happened to Teldrassil.
You don’t know that they are unstable and violent. All your evidence is speculative and anecdotal.
Why would they summon a giant molten giant in a residential market area in the first place? There was a much better choke point up ahead which technically was more military then residential, they could have done it there and still kept the escape path open for civilians.
And no, I never said that, I am saying the Alliance has done something bad, and if you are morally outraged at Teldrassil, then this should be no different.
Even if said Civilians had no other choice? Let me propose a scenario.
Let us say Garrosh is Warchief, he also succeeded in this War of Thorns and set out to occupy Teldrassil, he marches on Teldrassil and has his Dark Shamans summon giant Molten Giants, who are, as I showed you in the last post from WoWpedia, violent and unpredictable. And march through Teldrassil to get to Malfurion to kill him. On his way civilians die. We don’t see the context, we just know that Garrosh was marching down Teldrassil, ready to murder Malfurion and Tyrande and a bunch of Night Elf civilians are strewn about dead.
Would you claim that those Night Elf civilians deserved to die?
Ah… you mean the quest with the rogue… yeah… I remember that. It is a quest you do, you are actually told to just murder military targets. That our orders were to just cripple their military, but the Blood Elf actually enjoys when you poison and kill civilians, thusly the murder of civilians there was not done under orders of our leaders and was just the military acting out, which makes it alright, correct? I mean that is the justification some people gave me on this thread for the Zandalari civilians dieing: Meh, just the Dark Iron acting out, it isn’t what our leaders wanted. Is that also your thoughts on the matter?
Because they are laying siege to a heavily fortified pyramid?
Surrender is always a choice.
We already established that violent and unpredictable doesn’t mean uncontrollable. And we can’t say the Dark Iron were dark shaman.
I wouldn’t say anyone deserves to die, but people die in war. I think if your faction started the war with genocide, you forfeit the right to complain about lives lost.
Also, we don’t see a bunch of Zandalari corpses, only a few, and the majority of civilians actively fighting. So, the context heavily supports my scenario.
Well, that, and also the fact that it was mention several times that the Horde is attacking people indiscriminately on the Alliance side. That statement supported by the river of wisps fleeing ashenvale.