Blizzard has really dropped the ball on this one…
2 Likes
Goshom, would a dagger really be that ineffective at piercing armor? I don’t know anything about melee combat but I would have guessed that using the point to force all of the pressure in a smaller area, combined with really throwing your body weight behind it, would give you a better chance of puncturing the armor even if you didn’t find a weak point to slide it through.
I thought it’s why boob plate would actually be incredibly dangerous to use, since the curves would naturally orient a deflected blade straight into the chest and keep it still when you apply force.
2 Likes
Yeah, you actually hit the nail on the head. Daggers were used this way for so long, that eventually they started making the blades triangular shaped, making the dagger a weapon the is specifically designed for armor piercing, and effectively making is near useless for anything other than thrusting and penetrative force.
1 Like
Who knew that using kitchen knives to puncture the frustratingly thick sealed plastic boxes of USB game controllers would actually have a historical precedent?
4 Likes
No, I get it, the thing is, to make it efficient, the knights had to grapple so they could pin the opponent so they could reach those chinks, getting to those chinks with a opponent who is constantly moving is not easy.
Not when it is just a mere scratch to them.
You think armor burns with smoldering heat naturally?
Yes, you are talking about… I just know the german word for it ‘Glass-härte’, which is why there is a second process in the hardening of metals to add a little spring to the metal so it doesn’t shatter. But one metal can be tougher then another. Hardened Steel is stronger then copper, always. The same is with the metal that the Dark Iron use, which would be tougher (considering they are trained commandos) rather then a random blade that the shopper found somewhere.
You still gotta form and forge the metal for the siege-engines. So not too much different. We are not talking about gun-making here or watch-making, but forging tanks.
If you have the person pinned and if he isn’t moving you might be able to get into a chink and using your entire weight like that would penetrate but again, require your target to not move, which is why, as Akiyass said, it was used AFTER the knights grappled and tried to pin each other. Either way, as I said, even if you got to force your dagger through the plate armor, beneath that you wouldn’t just have bare flesh or even just basic linen, it would usually either be a chainmail or gambeson which would add a extra layer, and after that, your dagger is stuck in the armor, you see it in Shadiversity’s video where he shows a dude using a Warpick to punch through armor, the pick barely goes through and is always stuck, forcing the dude to heave at the weapon to dislodge it from the breastplate.
They didn’t -HAVE- to grapple, it just usually ended up that way. Because knights typically used maces, hammers, and war picks… so if they are using a dagger, it was because those weapons failed, or the opponent disarmed them/grappled them. Then the fighting just devolved into a knife fight on the ground…
It wouldn’t be though. The Baselard dagger was 650 mm, which is more than two feet long. Also consider how tall trolls are, so proportionately, that dagger the Troll was using was likely the size of a short sword for a dwarf. Which they can use with a reverse grip to increase the penetrative force.
I mean, you would think heated metal would be softer than normal.
Source?
So, general armor making. Steel can only be so hard though, and the materials being used here is unspecified.
Yes, why is it, that if daggers were that effective they were not the first weapon they used? Because they weren’t as effective as swords, maces, warpicks (etc)
That is a good point… I never considered that, touche.
If it were those heats then it would melt any other metal it would come in contact with considering that Dark Iron (the preferred metal used by Dark Irons, obvious, I know) is heavily resistant to heat and can retain those kind of enchantments pretty well.
Found only in the deepest core of the greatest mountains, dark iron is inherently volcanic in origin. It can be forged only in the hottest of environments, and only when such places are uncorrupted magic. The deep-dwelling dwarves of Blackrock Mountain employ a forge constructed directly into a river of molten lava, the only place they could find that could generate the required amount of heat. There are also rumors that a similar forge exists in the heart of the Elemental Plane, where dark iron is much more common. A journey to this site would not be for the faint of heart.
Dark iron is inherently sensitive to magic. If corrupted by incorrectly cast spells, it fractures into useless powder. Magical enhancements can be added to dark iron arms and armor only as the newly forged item cools to just the right temperature and consistency. Once the item is complete, no futher enhancements or enchantments can be added. Such attempts simply fail, wasting any ingredients used in the attempt. For obvious reasons, magic dark iron items must be created at the time they are forged.
Items made of dark iron are a shadowy gray color. They appear more like charcoal than metal, and if struck give a flat, dull tone instead of a metallic clang. Although they have a fragile appearance, dark iron items are exceptionally tough and resilient in battle. -RPG
1 Like
The difference between Horde and Alliance “evilness” is this:
Horde, as a group, attack cities and towns with civilians in them which belong to their enemies in times of war. The Alliance, on the other hand, produces more singular heroes who fall to corruption and set in motion events that lead to civilian deaths at catastrophic, world changing levels.
Horde examples: The Kor’kron bombing Theramore. The attack on Teldrassil.
Alliance examples: Arthas and the cult of the Damned. The Draenei leading the Legion to Draenor. Medivh bringing the Horde to Azeroth.
1 Like
I can agree with that to some extent, though again, if you think Teldrassil was bad, then by definition you should think the same holds true for Dazar’alor. I support Teldrassil and Theramor, the same way I support Dazar’alor. Those were all military targets. And I really think that even if Sylvanas is this xpacs big bad, which she isn’t it is obviously N’zoth, then the next big bad HAS to be Genn.
1 Like
Which I admit… but that isn’t your argument. You said that daggers were NO THREAT to an armored opponent. Which is actually the opposite of the truth.
Not really. Watch some videos on metal folding. What they do is they use an axe to cut soft, heated metal, before folding it.
Which is noncanon
1 Like
Yeah not the best thing to use, but considering that Dark Iron requires better smithing to make and usually creates higher quality weapon and armor then normal iron or steel, I would consider it to have SOME truth there.
I guess I worded it wrong, I mean to say it is no threat to a armored opponent if the wielder has no idea how to use it. And again, those are civilians, not trained fighters.
I stand corrected on that, but Dark Iron is not like that, considering that the enchantment doesn’t make your armor lose any armor rating, meaning those enchantments do not influence the density of the metal by any means.
1 Like
Didn’t Saurfang say All of them will be coming after us now? Here is the difference between the Horde and Alliance attacks. The Horde attacked first, the Alliance is reacting.
1 Like
I still disagree with that, but no matter, let us say you are right, because the Alliance is reacting, does that give them a right to do that which they claim makes the Horde evil? And the next argument will probably it isn’t as bad as Teldrassil, alright, so let us say Teldrassil was a 100 on the attrocity index, does that mean the Alliance get to rampage on a scale from 1-99 as much as they want because the Horde has committed a 100 scale warcrime? Here is the thing, if you hold standards for someone, you should follow those standards yourself.
1 Like
Why do we assume their weapons and armor are better?
We don’t know if these civilians know how to use their weapon or not, not to mention they are trolls, who are dangerous by their sheer size, strength and regeneration abilities. Anyone who is attacking you should be treated as a legitimate threat.
1 Like
Hear me out, the Alliance is not perfect. They’re not meant to be the 100% the good guys. If we attack, they will forgive. Regardless, Horde attack >>>>>>> Alliance attack. The Alliance didn’t destroy their city coating it with a giant sheet of Ice. The Alliance wanted to send a message while the Horde gave a statement.
1 Like
Only in-game lore I can use here is the fact that when you make it on your character, the stuff is usually better then any other things that you could make with Iron and Steel, armor has hire stats as well as weapons. Thusly I assume it to be of higher quality then steel.
I could point to the Dwarf Guild I am a part of on Wyrmrest Accord who have posted elaborate backgrounds on each metals, but those are usually bits and pieces of the few things of in-game lore we find, the RPG and from what we see in the crafting journal. So that wouldn’t hold much weight here.
But you presumed that even the dead were fighters, when we see many were just trying to escape the city. When you do the War-campaign and come to the city gates you see many just trying to run. And as I said, when you are inside the raid and look out of the raid beyond the portal, you see Zandalari Trolls, a named captain I think, holding back Dark Iron, seeing how they are not stopping us from coming in, I assume they were chasing the fleeing civilians. As well as the fact that they rained down cataclysmic fire on a residential market, and Grong as well being released on a similar residential place, which I am still willing to show you.
I never made that argument that the Alliance have committed a warcrime worse then the Horde, the highest argument I ever made, is that there weren’t as many deaths as there are is because the Horde came and pushed the Alliance out of Dazar’alor and put down that rampaging Kaijuu.
1 Like
True but with any war soldiers will do things out of order. The Alliance mission was to kill the king and get out. To send the Zandalari a message about joining the Horde. They completed it but the mission was a failure to begin with. Let’s say Teldrassil, wasn’t the mission to secure the area, take hostages and then use them as leverage for the war on Azerite? What happened next? Was it a random solider that blew up the tree? or was it our leader? Didn’t our leader change the plans completely because one fallen elf got under her skin? That’s the difference.
1 Like
That’s the thing, we don’t actually see the Dark Irons kill anyone. We see them fighting people and running after people with no context of what is happening. Meanwhile, we had a whole cinematic, event and novella pointing the red arrow at Sylvanas, and even Blizzard themselves calling Teldrassil a genocide.
One has undeniable proof, the other is entirely speculative with no confirmation and no death count. For all we know, zero civilians were killed. To compare these two events is laughable.
1 Like
I can make the argument that Saurfagn did not follow orders which led us to burn down Teldrassil, since the burning in one of the books was justified by her that with Malfurion alive, he would simply return to Teldrassil and start a revolution… stupid, but whatever, they always right characters stupid when they need them to be. But to say she did it because a elf got under her skin is wrong, that was just the cinematic being stupid, that they didn’t paint a villain moustache on her in that cinematic wonders me.
Saying that zero-civilians were killed is laughable, look, I grant you that Dazar’alor, even if you see it as a warcrime what happened, is not as bad as Teldrassil, but we do see that there are dead civilians and the Dark Iron chasing after the civilians that ran. What excuse is there for running after non-combatants who just try to get out of the combat zone?
Maybe, but for all we -know- for a -fact- is that we don’t know. We don’t see it happen, and maybe it didn’t. If you want to make the claim that it did happen, you need proof and you have none.
Do we know they were civilians, or were they combatants?
Prisoners of war, ransom, maybe the Dark Irons believed they came to conquer, in which case the Zandalari would be annexed. Aka, become citizens of the Alliance. Letting them loose to become freedom fighters and/or insurgents would not be good.
There are a number of reasons.
1 Like