So you bring up a lot of good points but also some random stuff that I dont think relates much.
The valkyr have the power to help yet they dont? Who is really the bad one here? Remember we are talking about the magical universe of wow. Its not like the forsaken are stealing their organs. Just using their magical prowess.
This is not a false dilemma at all. A very real one infact. A leader sometimes has to make very hard decisions.
Not necessarily. We actually see this with sylvs character, Dies a hero of her people and looks to be going to a pretty nice place, but is instead ripped out by arthas. After helping save the world she then goes to hell? The Maw dosent sound like a place where any can really achieve any form of redemption. Dunno about you, but that sounds like a terrible after life.
Well we never see a discussion regarding it since it wasn’t brought up to them.
But I don’t think someone is bad for refusing to help someone in certain situations. I might have the money to pay for a life saving surgery for someone else, I don’t think I have a duty to do so. Or say you have a skilled surgeon that doesn’t feel like practicing medicine anymore, I don’t think they have a duty to keep working or do free surgeries.
I used organ harvest just as an example of harm since we’re talking about enslavement, since there’s not a great parallel for some aspects. If someone was dying and enslaving someone would somehow save them, I wouldn’t give it a pass.
I explained why it is false, because other options exist. It isn’t a comment on whether or not the choice is easy or hard.
A false dilemma is when two options are presented (in this case enslaving the Valkyr or not) when other options actually exist (as I listed above, cooperation or pursuing other research).
Most likely, though. The Maw isn’t a typical place to go.
‘After helping save the world’ kind of sugar coats a lot. I don’t know if we have the specific reasons why she went there? But if anything, she’s shown that a second chance isn’t great. She’s only been getting worse since then.
But conversely, if someone then steals your money or kidnaps that doctor to make that operation happen, I wouldn’t brand them an irredeemable villain either.
Yeah, but in the face of what we do in Azeroth, a lot of characters including the PC themselves should be put under jurisdiction.
Face it or not, Sylvanas enslaving a few Valkyr to save her people would be among the lesser crimes in Azeroth and likely to be overlooked, especially considering that they are already kind of bound to service under Odin. If she uses those Valkyr to bring back people who want to live again, it might even lessen the evil of the act.
Another thing is, we don’t really know what she was going to do. Perhaps she could’ve offered them a deal- freedom from Odyn to explore the universe in exchange for service to the Forsaken.
As Irenaus pointed out, there were indeed other options Sylvanas could’ve explored rather than jumping directly to enslaving someone we needed as an ally against the Legion.
Like with the organ donation analogy (and with people like Zelling and Lorash Sunbeam, not to mention all the player Forsaken in the cata starting zone who chose to join the Forsaken rather than going their own way or returning to death) we know there are people who’d choose undeath over final death. Heck the cult of the damned shows there are apparently a large number of healthy, not-dying living people who chose to serve Arthas because they viewed becoming undead as a gift and a path to immortality.
That was a perfectly valid avenue to bolster the Forsaken’s ranks. Or she could’ve researched ways to ‘Nathanos-ify’ the already existing Forsaken without sacrificing so much of an individual Valkyr’s power (or require using a living relative as raw materials like they used his poor cousin for) >_>
Nowhere, honestly. Making her the face of a faction was always going to be a mistake. You don’t redeem the perpetrator of ethnic cleansing and not have it come across as hackneyed garbage, and conversely you can’t lean into her villainy without ticking off a large section of the fanbase. She never should have been warchief.
Yes I do. It wasn’t foreshadowed at all. To say that it seems to ignore her story. In contrary all of her characterization went in to the opposite direction. She became more “caring” and started to see more even the Horde as a whole as a positive thing.
She even respected Vol’jin and felt for him. A Troll. Sylvanas hated Trolls in the past (understandably in live).
What could have happened? Simply don’t make her warchief. The Legion and BfA cinematics showed what was possible.
The Legion blurb hinted that after being made Warchief, her character struggle would be to her own selfish desires or that of the Horde. This implied that over the course of the expansion and future ones she’d actually grow as a person again and properly earn the admiration and loyalty of the the Horde, and finally move out of the whole “I’m only here because it benefits me!” shtick she’s been in a while and truly became a honored member of the Horde.
You and I both know the Forsaken have gotten away with smaller crimes since Vanilla and nobody bat an eye. But the same applies to several other races like dwarves and orcs.
Who do we paint as not evil in this light? I think morally grey is a venue that most races, sooner or later, have to undertake. So long as it doesn’t get into unconditional evil territory.
This argument comes up again and again, as if you want a free pass for the Horde to commit crimes against the Alliance nations, knowing that the Alliance will never pay back the same with the same. I mean, this argument comes up again and again and again and it’s always been nonsense, actually.
The Horde? Sure, though at least in the lore they’re supposed to be bothered and working to redeem them.
The Alliance? I don’t think so, they’ve been intermittently disgusted and at war with them for some time. Even trying to work with the Scarlet Crusade against them.
I’ve definitely seen people complain about a lot of Forsaken acts, I’d be surprised many got missed in that regard. Like bio-testing on people in the early questing.
Everyone suffered from the Legion arc being cut. Thankfully Legion’s own narrative was solid enough that it it didn’t need to include the faction leaders, but damned if BfA didn’t suffer for it in it’s stead.
I wouldn’t have wanted Sylvanas as warchief either, but I can see the potential in it if her and Anduin’s storylines were thematic mirrors of each other, a kind leader learning he has to be more pragmatic and a ruthless leader learning to be more compassionate.
It certainly looked to to have been far more interesting than what we ended up having.