No offense, but how are you going to sit there and say the spec is completely fine, no issues and then tell people that complain about it and ask for changes that they are playing wrong when your best logs are as tank and your havoc ones are grey in mythic. Heroic isn’t exactly better with blue averages.
Literally since SL pre-patch at the end of BFA we have been complete dog to play. Two straight expansions of being ignored and when actually buffed they end up doing nothing. Meanwhile every other spec that has other good dps specs that they can turn to are either receiving significant changes or complete reworks while it can be argued that havoc is probably in need the most of a rework at this point, because it just isn’t working.
Actually let me edit this. When it does get buffed to actually be good it gets nerfed very quickly back to mediocre status, while other classes are just allowed to remain strong for several patches.
And then on top of that, they not only continue to make this movement based playstyle mandatory for optimal play, but they continue to design these new encounters that heavily deter moving and make it punishing to play. Or pick the worst dungeons to bring back for us. Honestly, vortex pinnacle is a big FU to the spec.
Essence break isn’t an issue though. Its a welcome damage buff for us and extra button that we sorely needed. It’s unbound chaos that’s the cancer here.
while i agree unbound chaos is rather toxic, essence break is the issue as to why we are forced to one main playstyle as we are always forced to spec into essence break due to the sheer power of the debuff the ability applies ontop of the crit buff due to know your enemy scaling. no one asked for the arms warrior colossal smash playstyle yet it has been forced onto us with no real other choice and this is the issue since its boring, low brow and just toxic. we were fine before in bfa and legion and many enjoyed havoc but now more and more folks are taking issue and start to vocalize their distaste for the playstyle that now infects our class.
missed you too, I have been lurking and rather working 60-70 weeks than playing, but resubbed with the new patch to give it a try because havoc in pvp and pve being force into essence break has been both unfun and overall not enjoyable. rather disappointed though as not much has changed, havoc is still mediocre and the playstyle is so one dimensional and boring.
I was enjoying pvp a bit though tbh until blizzard failed to properly tune (meta needs to slow down), the rise of the shattered destiny/any means build is exactly what the spec needs to be enjoyable again. if they could translate the viability of said build havoc would greatly benefit, but im sure the essence break crowd would whine and complain against that.
Where did I ever say we were completely fine with no issues and don’t need a buff? I said quite the opposite if you’d like to try reading. What I said is people need to stop with the we’re unplayable and unviable BS because it’s straight not true. We’re middle of the pack and because the current raid is 80% ST it makes it hurts us that much more.
What I also said is 95% of players would benefit from working on their play such as the dunce above playing TG on mythic Krazz and then complaining about DPS. I want people to actually use their brains instead of just crying the sky is falling when they aren’t meta. You seem to be one of those people so I guess that’s why you got all offended and started looking at my parses. Never said I was a pro and yeah sorry my mythic parses with with sub par team that couldn’t clear mythic krazz this week aren’t up to your standard.
Please try following the conversation before trying to call me out for things I didn’t say
Why are some people defending Blizz for not adding 3rd spec? Yes we have issues with both specs that are now here so is that our fault? Nope. Add 3rd spec and start taking care of this class like every other, if druid can have 4 specs and brand new Evoker can have 3rd one than we deserve 3rd one too and being taken care of.
I’m not feeling sorry for devs they should be fired on the spot for not doing their job, they shove playstyles down our throats and leave us be without alternatives. I really dislike momentum and i get that others enjoy it and there is alternative Glave Tempest build but its bad. I lose 20k dps when i switch from momentum to that build. Momentum feels horrible too because movement based playstyle is not supported by M+ meta where dmg is everywhere( example Vortex Pinnicle 1st and sec boss.)
Even mages are getting freaking rework when frost is top tier on single target and arcane,fire are top on m+ forti. Get a team of of few devs to take care of our class instead of hiring people to turn wall pictures of females into fruit u joke of a company @Blizz.
yall legit need to look at this more thoroughly than just “evoker gets a 3rd spec!!!”. look at augvoker, what it does, what it possibly can do, its role slot, and then look at devoker and prevoker. youd see that augvoker itself is currently so strong that it will delete both of its other specs from the eyes of the overal community. why bring a devoker or prevoker when augvoker can do more damage, feed parses, provide decent offhealing and spiritshell, not to mention all the utility that locks bring and other specs.
so yes demon hunter doesnt need a 3rd spec, it needs attention to its other specs instead of all attention being funneled to a spec that could make both irrelevant
“i dont like to play momentum! FIRE THE DEVS” this is a overreaction.
no mover is only 0.5-3% behind, if your losing 20k st then your doing somthing horribly wrong. m+ you can still achieve heavy overals with no movers if your doing weekly 20’s. this seems like a skill issue
mage was unplayable, didnt synergy with any of its kit and capstone talents, was floor pov, heavily reliant on no moving and all its damage is tied to its cooldowns, not to mention for frost that if you mess up your rotation for cd cdr you do sub tank damage. yall have to legit apply critical thinking on the reasons why mages get aura buffed every week and still underperforms by any who isnt solely focusing on parses and ignoring every mechanic thrown at them
Having 1 more spec brings more variety to class overall, some class spec being better than other is non stop thing changing within wow, but at current state we have nothing to chose from and even this choice sucks. As i told you already what is the problem with adding 3rd spec and fixing existing ones at same time? Are u feeling sorry for devs doing some acctual work? Is it asking too much after years of noting new to the class? If ur that concerned about devs overworking themselves give em some free massages.
Ofc devs should be fired and momentum is only 1 prob out of many reasons so u might miss interpert post above.
If i do more dps with more complex build like momentum than with glave tempest i wouldnt say its skill issue, and looking at sims numbers is matching human playing vs computer so those are not that accurate, also i was talking in m+ scenario here not raids.
I have no idea where did u see that mages suck in dps they are very good on every chart. Y so u see when mages dislike their rotations its ok but when i dislike momentum skill issue. They have to stay still to do dps? We have to expand every movement to do dps! And i and many others dislike that. Didnt we get aura buffed as well and we only sank in charts while mage is in decent spot so who do u think needs more attention?
Basicly ur Dh hater, when u cant stop defending blizz for not buffing and giving attention to your own class, fr who does that lol
no? i just want them to put effort in fixing the two specs we have instead of adding a 3rd one cause buthurt people saw evoker get one.
nah like that retoric like that is why blizzard kills communication between community and devs. “wah waaaahhh i dont like momenttum” warrior is right there. play that
every top parse player can match and even surpass their specs sims. your failure to play the spec is a skill issue.
a mage that ignores everything just to focus on the rotation (if they mess up on they do sub tank damage mind you) compared to a average mage player which are bottom, there is a clear disconnect. demon hunter no mover is only .5-1% behind momentum in st so your only fooling yourself
im a dh hater because i like momentum. legit logic bro
U have no idea what ur talking about also talking about skills when u barely pass 2k rio as ret pala that is broken in m+ rn, u also didnt even kill last boss in raid on Hc so im sure u like Dh so much rn that u switched to pala lol
So ur saying top charts are based on people who always fail and are totaly wrong that mage is in good spot now dmg output wise.
Again for someome who cant even reach 2.5rio ur talking too much about sims and how every player should beat it and skills.
If u read this forum and listned to majority of Dh players instead of coming here guns blazing totaly against helping out Dh in the long run u would see that majority of playerbase hates momentum and we have right to demand change.
Ur only argument is that i want devs fired bcs momentum lol, as i said its only one of the issues. For exp Netherwalk is usless but amazing talent because it can’t be taken without losing dmg. Any means neccesary is usless in any single target scenario but its op in m+ so all your mastery from gear is not good when u go raid, none of amazing talents we really wanted back made it to our talent tree etc etc i wont list all of them bcs u prolly dont even know what they are bcs u dont play Dh.
This will be end of discussion with you here since i dont see a point to argue with someome who hates Dh and doesnt play it. Btw im from EU so i cant list my Dh here on profile but if ur interested id love to compare ur amazing Dh char to mine if u DM me. bb
ehhh, while I agree with many of your points no mover is more than 1% behind momentum. Significantly more. Obviously this depends on the fight, and DH over-sims like crazy, but having played both (with multiple 95%+ mythic logs using both specs) momentum provides closer to 3-5% over no mover.
It really is a terrible talent, miserably boring maintenance playstyle, and unrewarding, but all of that is secondary to the fact that Havoc is just straight up weak. People wouldn’t care about momentum so much if we were topping the meters or close to it, but we’re not. We’re fel-rushing around like fools to maintain a miserable buff that doesn’t even let us keep up. It feels giga bad to parse a 99 and be 12th on the meter, behind multiple blue parses of other classes.
Our problems run deeper than that: Our leech has been gutted over the last 2-3 years, our lack of versatility stacking makes us a lot less durable, this was all increased by the 40% change pre-DF, and to top it all off our damage is severely under-tuned.
Havoc needs a pretty substantial rework. We can argue about the specifics of what that would mean but our spec is in a terrible spot.
Conversely, vengeance is probably the best it has ever been. That will go away when we lose this tier’s borrowed power, but hopefully it is a trial run for new talents since the entire mid/upper right of the vengeance tree is effectively DOA.
the concept of play different characters is such a foreign concept to you all. no wonder your unhappy with the game.
once again theres such a huge disconnect more so than other spec between casual mages and top end mages. you are twisting my words willingly because you dont have two braincells to think
you really like talking about rio as if it bothers you that somewith witha lower rating is better than you in every aspect.
its a loud minority at best, alot of the suggestions here dont even hit the core issues of havoc that harm it more than momnetum, aka isolated prey felrush granting fury and turning off as soon as fodder pops up reducing in a huge loss of eyebeam damage and other benefits, the issue of never ending demonic and the fact if you lose uptime on it you do negative damage. but no yall dont talk about demonic and its massive uptime to the point meta isnt a cd, because yall “like” being a big demon all the time without worryign about numbers. but suddenly when its about momentum, numbers matter again as if 8% extra damage only before your essb windows is damning compared to anni and death sweep dwarfing chaos strike and blade dance.
all specs have a aoe dominate build and a st dominate build, please play other specs. this isnt a dh only issue. hell its not even a issue
i figured? lvl10 characters usually mean eu cause eu forum is dead
you had me until here, yall realize that verse is a garbage stat right? yall talking about the dr it provides as if it did something of value, also our leech in meta is still huge? to the point havoc can stay self sufficient its one of their strongest benefits, so ofcourse that was going to be tuned down since you can run a havoc, and other self sufficent dps with prot paladin and drop a healer in m+ and raiding content.
you got me again, yes havoc needs a reshuffling of its tree
the tier does prop it up but all the issues of vdh is still there like talent inflexability, general clunky spec mechanics such as debuf dr and alot of trap talents in every corner of the tree (revel in pain, soul monger, roaring flame, fel fire fortification). as muc has we all like big numbies, we cant always say “it has big numbers so its the best its ever been” that just breeds ignorance like people drooling over unholy or mage without realizing those specs play like horrible pianos that do 0 dam outside of their huge burst
You don’t play at a level where this affects you at all.
Once you’re playing with a raid crew of everyone doing 90+ parses, and you’re near the bottom and are holding the team back while performing at 90%+ (which, if you’re doing 90% parses, you won’t be, even at bottom DPS), then you can complain.
I agree that veng has talent inflexibility to an extent, however of the 3 major paths (soul crush, last resort, brand) you can mix and match them pretty well. Last resort + brand without soul crush is a fantastic setup atm. I’d really like to be able to grab sigil of Chains but it just isn’t realistic.
The DR for Versatility really only comes in when you’re doing high end content. You won’t care doing 20s and late-tier mythic, but for prog and really high keys it’s extremely important, especially for tiers like this where your ability to survive one-shot mechanics is largely the determining factor of your success.
Also, on some throughput heavy bosses such as Rashok this tier, G’huun back in BFA, and many others having an extra 10-15% vers really makes a difference over the course of the fight. Leech is big here too. Back in BFA we could get up to 40%, not we cannot. It’s one of those quality of life nerfs that makes zero sense.
We’ve been steadily eroded tier after tier. Reverting most of the changes would be a good place to start.
for very high keys ya with high amount of fort mobs. but your sacrificing alot of dps and tyranical boss dr/prio damger add dr for a uptime of spikes. other than that there is really no reason to run feed the dilf build becuase you end up gimping yourself by a large margin. you hav to ask yourself how other tanks are able to grab talents like FTD at lower costs and thus able to mix and match it more easily. not to mention LR is dead in the water but a neat bonus simply cause its bellow ftd. generally the talent tree is inflexable because it simply doesnt match what other tanks can grab.
cant argue with that, but that can be solved by buyffing blurr or giving havoc nw/ a another DR. what verse can do, other specs can do better with the addition of other defensives. like ret.
you are giving way to more credit for stats with secondary in their name. unfort bfa is long gone and extremely different from sl-df