Playing sin at the moment and I love it, but I’m starting to push +10 +11 keys and beyond, and I notice most rogues that are either in my group or in higher keys on raider io are all outlaw. Wheres the threshold for m+ where people start desiring only outlaw? or is sin viable at higher keys and I’m just putting too much stock in io?
Sin can definitely compete with Outlaw in M+ however the biggest difference is to do good in M+ as Outlaw you only need a single trait on any of the 3 pieces of gear which is Wits. As Sin you want either 3 SS 3 EB or 1 SS 2 Twist 3 EB and to get that gear you have to get it from the Azerite vendor. There is a raid chest or shoulders that you could use that have 1 SS 1 Twist but the rest you’re stuck gambling every 2 weeks assuming you do a at least a 15.
You’re also stuck with the issue of needing to drop combat after each pack of mobs to restealth and not every tank is going to do this for you whereas Outlaw it doesn’t really matter and you can just chain packs.
3 Likes
I’ve been playing sin this season for all my keys (mainly because i enjoy it more than outlaw) and i’ve been able to do some pretty big keys with it. I honestly think play what ever you feel most comfortable with.
2 Likes
Maybe never? Our AOE damage just got nerfed.
6 Likes
Yeah dont even bother now. The changes on wowhead just removed outlaw from M+.
2 Likes
The dmg nerf will kind of kill a big reaosn why we get to do fortified keys but its because blizzard cant handle having their keys ruined by outsmarting their employees which is not hard to do with the way they respond to things. Too bad they dont know how class tweaking actually work because they need to protect their crappy key tournaments since they almost have nothing else with everyone leaving their company anyway.
2 Likes
outlaw is gonna be fine…y’all are so dramatic lol. being brought in line with other melee dps isn’t a problem when we still have shroud and more utility than any other class
stop sipping the kool aid for a second
5 Likes
You know the best thing about it is people are going to think this is magically going to change MDI meta when all it means is they’re going to run 1 Sin shroud bot and 2 DH because they’re blizzards little love child and can’t be touched.
2 Likes
Exactly, it aint gonna change that much.
I mean man, you play a Rogue which is a class that has been top tier for everything in this expansion so far.
1 Like
What nerf is this???
Blade Flurry nerfed from 45% cleave to 30% cleave (50% -> 35% with Dancing Steel) Wits nerfed from 5% to 3% per stack (Up to 33 stacks again)
Rogue discord has it at us losing about 15% overall total damage which basically puts us below Fury, DH, WW, UH while also not even touching those classes single target without luck. It also basically kills blood of the enemy and forces you into iris which will kill ST even more.
During fort week right now I can finish most dungeons around 44k overall dps which DH and Fury can both easily finish at considering I see it constantly with the people that I run with yet these classes aren’t getting touched so why is that? People think it’s okay for me to just essentially lose 6.6k dps overall while not being compensated for SS rng or ST in general for outlaw?
4 Likes
I feel ya man. I was doing overall about the same damage as all those other classes (situationally better AoE numbers sometimes, and worse single target all the time) so it felt fine to me.
Doing 15% less without some kind of single target buff makes me a lot less useful for M+, and something no one else seems to be considering, way less useful in raids.
Maybe people forgot some folks still raid as outlaw. It’s already an uphill battle with our single target.
Would’ve preferred a fix that balanced our M+ performance with other classes without hurting our raid performance.
Like, I dunno. A blade flurry target cap and a single target buff?
People at the beginning of the patch said Outlaw was going to not be viable in keys anymore… they were wrong. All this is going to do is bring us more in line with other classes, rather than being so far ahead of everyone else that every group running high keys takes two outlaw rogues.
I do agree with the single target though, it is frustrating re-rolling everything that isn’t a two buff or ruthless precision. It’s a little ridiculous that only one of the buffs is really worth anything on it’s own. However, 3x Ace with DS does a ton of damage, it eventually evens out over the course of a long fight, especially if you have the Ashvane trinket.
Fair point about what they said previously. But that was just a nerf to the wits trait. (Which didn’t seem to take, because for the first time ever this season, I’m running two. It sims higher than one and a brigand’s blitz.)
And yeah, DPS may even out on a long fight, but it “evens out” to “medicore.” And if the fight is short? It can be absolutely laughable. I pulled 22k overall on a Galvazzt fight this week in a 15 ToS. The fight lasted for one minute and four seconds. I was 5th on the meter. Behind the healer, who did 23k. That’s the first time that’s ever happened to me. Short fights + other classes doing more single target damage with essences + our absolutely abysmal single target barring good luck with rolls = lame.
We didn’t need a 15% damage nerf to our AoE. As I’ve been harping on about here and in other threads, my AoE damage has been close to, slightly above, or slightly behind many of the other classes we’ve mentioned. And single target has always, always been behind. Except maybe Ret paladins. That’s a fair trade off in my opinion. Granted, it’s possible I am the world’s worst outlaw rogue, and every single one that you’ve all grouped with just absolutely SHREDS the damage meter, but c’mon. Really? I’m an above average rogue and I’ve pugged with hundreds and hundreds of DPS up to 19 keys, and in 99% of those runs, when I check the DPS meter for overall, I see stuff like (1. 42.4k, 2. 41.6k, 3. 39.8k 4. tank 5. healer) You can substitute any numbers from any season. They’ve always been tight in my runs. In a few runs… out of hundreds, I’ve seen situations where one person is just WAY ahead of the other DPS, but never more than 7k or so. I just chalk that up to that being a really good player. More often, but still not very often, I’ll see third place DPS a good chunk behind 1st and 2nd. I just chalk that up to that person being slightly less good or less optimal of a class than the other two DPS. But you know what I never see? Rogues destroying the meter and doing thousands more DPS than every other DPS class. Every time I’m first on the meter, it’s by 1-3k overall or so. 42k to someone else’s 41. Someone that isn’t a rogue.
If they’re gonna nerf our AoE, they need to buff our ST, or we’re gonna fall too far behind, and outlaw will end up where sub is. With one viable spec for the class. That’s not good for the game, it’s not good for rogues, and it’s not good for anyone.
And again, on raid fights with 2-3 targets? I haven’t looked at warcraft logs recently, but I don’t recall top raiding guilds stacking outlaw rogues for their sweet DPS. This 15% is going to crush the few people (like me) that raid as outlaw. Not cool. A cap to blade flurry targets would’ve let us remain viable for small dungeon pulls, and for raiding, while addressing the apparent problem of our “out of control insane” AoE damage for huge trash pulls in M+.
Was every other outlaw rogue pulling 60k + overall this season already, and I’m just the one idiot still doing low 40s like the rest of the DPS or something? Because no one complaining about rogue damage ever shares numbers. They just say crap like “200k on reaping” that they saw once, on a rogue with a 5 roll, using potions, with all cooldowns up, in perfect positioning, getting an obscene number of critical hits.
2 Likes
If your single target is low just use a single target essence, easy right?
We have to use iris just to compete with outlaw in aoe, so use a single target essence to compete in single target.
The scorpion had wings for too long.
I have to use the Iris, or I wouldn’t be able to compete with other DPS. As I said, it’s always been quite close for me. I’ve tried not using the Iris, and I come pretty far behind the others. That thing is doing about 6-10 million damage for all of us in every run.
And with the nerf, I’ll need it even more. Which will mean foregoing a single target essence and still generally doing mediocre to garbage to pretty okay single target damage depending on what random dice I roll.
I don’t do too much PvE but I agree this nerf sucks. In a typical mythic environment we aren’t too far ahead of other players. Those mythic tournament examples which they clearly based their nerf off is not representative of most Outlaw players.
I don’t care too much, but I think it’s a bit stupid that they have nerfed the cleave and not buffed the single target damage. Our ST damage is below most other classes in PvE and considerably worst in PvP compared to all other Melee classes besides maybe Enhance Shaman.
This xpac has just been continual Outlaw nerfs in both pvp and pve with no positive improvements or adjustments that I can think of.
6 Likes
That was literally the purpose of taking Blood of the Enemy because it could compete with Iris and help with ST. With the changes that’s no longer an option and you’re forced to use Iris in every single situation which will also kill Outlaws already pathetic ST.
And yeah, DPS may even out on a long fight, but it “evens out” to “medicore.” And if the fight is short? It can be absolutely laughable. I pulled 22k overall on a Galvazzt fight this week in a 15 ToS. The fight lasted for one minute and four seconds. I was 5th on the meter. Behind the healer, who did 23k. That’s the first time that’s ever happened to me. Short fights + other classes doing more single target damage with essences + our absolutely abysmal single target barring good luck with rolls = lame.
Unfortunately that’s the nature of the spec. If you’re an outlaw rogue you aren’t being brought into a key because your single target damage is off the charts, you’re being brought because of your utility and great AoE. You also used a pure single target fight with no adds as an example. You’re still gonna be top of the meters on bosses like Sand Crawler, Lockwood, Raal, the second boss in Temple, etc. Very few specs have it both ways this expansion, you’re either a single target spec, a cleave spec, or an AoE spec.
We didn’t need a 15% damage nerf to our AoE. As I’ve been harping on about here and in other threads, my AoE damage has been close to, slightly above, or slightly behind many of the other classes we’ve mentioned. And single target has always, always been behind. Except maybe Ret paladins.
If a Ret paladin is doing poor single target damage with their insane burst, they’re playing it wrong unless the fight has a ton of movement.
If they’re gonna nerf our AoE, they need to buff our ST, or we’re gonna fall too far behind, and outlaw will end up where sub is. With one viable spec for the class. That’s not good for the game, it’s not good for rogues, and it’s not good for anyone.
Rogues have literally been the flavor of the expansion class, Sin has not gotten a single nerf since Deadly Brew was removed in PVP, and not a damage nerf since Shrouded Suffocation got nerfed back in Uldir. Again, Outlaw is going to be viable and still very, very good but it’s not going to be far and away the class to stack in mythic plus.
And again, on raid fights with 2-3 targets? I haven’t looked at warcraft logs recently, but I don’t recall top raiding guilds stacking outlaw rogues for their sweet DPS. This 15% is going to crush the few people (like me) that raid as outlaw. Not cool.
No melee classes are getting stacked, everyone is stacking ranged. Even then, Method didn’t class stack. Limit did sure (s. priests and warlocks), but nobody is stacking melee classes. As for raiding as Outlaw, unless you’re a cutting edge mythic raider then it’s not going to matter too much. Every spec is viable at Heroic level or below. And because rogues are a pure dps class, the developers expect you to be able to play all three specs. This wouldn’t be a situation unique to rogues. Mages only have one viable spec. Warlocks only have one viable spec. Hunters for most of the expansion only had one viable spec. DKs, one viable dps spec. Do I agree with this type of class design? No. Do i think it’s fair that Sin is always so ridiculously powerful? No. Did I agree with Sub getting gutted? No. But let’s wait to see how this plays out before declaring Outlaw a dead spec.
You should be doing more than that on a fort week currently as Outlaw.