That is what you said you’re relying on. So how can you be so upset that we are following your statements? It is illogical.
No, that is what YOU SAID i was relying on. Nowhere in this thread did i EVER SAY i relied on that. Nor would i EVER SAY i was solely relying on that.
Edit because you edited your post while i was replying:
Again, still not true, no matter how many times you bring it up and try to troll with it.
You claimed realmpop is inaccurate and should be ignored.
You claimed that you instead would rely on queues as your way of proving a point. Even though it says nothing.
Its all right there in this topic for everyone to see.
Nope, that is not what i said. I said it is inaccurate and YOU want to use it as gospel. I also said it proves my point. I furthermore said it uses a flawed mechanic.
Nope, that is not what i said. That is what YOU said i said. Again a you thing. I said que times point to an imbalance in participation brought about by a population imbalance as i have been saying ALL THREAD LONG. Still hasn’t changed and it won’t change no matter how many times YOU say i said something i didn’t.
Yes it is. It’s even right here for you to go reread AND re-quote if you want.
It is a question of perception more than it is actual faction imbalance, yes. If only someone had said that previously.
This is where the common horde argument breaks down and they stop facing reality in order to defend their unfair social advantages.
Most players don’t “pick a side” in the way of “I play X and only X”. I do, but I am a part of an extreme minority.
Most people play a variety of things on both sides. And while they will have their “main characters” that they spend most of their time on, they are free to spend time on either side. There are not usually any penalties to jumping the faction fence.
If I want to spend a few hours playing a horde toon, there is nothing stopping me. No the thousands of hours I’ve spent playing alliance. Not the eleven alliance toons I have at 120. Not the guild I’m a member of on the alliance.
Hell…we even have a horde branch.
The problem we’re facing as Alliance is one of participation, but it’s not what the horde posters are painting. People don’t “prefer alliance to do non-consequential content”, which is what they’re really suggesting both as a way to hand-wave the whole argument and also to get some kind of insult in to make themselves feel better (hint: if you didn’t think we were right at some level, you wouldn’t feel the need to belittle the argument in the first place and be so dismissive).
The participation problem the Alliance is facing is one of “Activity Monopoly”. The horde has a monopoly on end-game activities because it’s where people are playing those activities.
If you want a mythic group, it is far easier to find on on the horde side.
If you want to raid, it is far easier to find a raid on the horde side.
If you want to PvP, it is far easier to find a PvP group on the horde side (which, funny enough, works against the horde because it requires alliance participation as well)
As has been pointed out, the best measure of imbalance is in Queue Times. PvP will be the best measure overall because it, in a way, compares faction participation against one another. When the alliance have instant queues, the horde queue is 8-10 times longer.
On the flip-side, you’ve got dungeon queues, LFR raid queues, movement on the mythic+ group lists, and raid hall of fame placements. In all of these, horde queues are far shorter than alliance queues, the group list is far longer and moves faster, and the horde mythic raid hall of fame fills in half to a quarter of the time.
So the problem we have here is that horde posters keep trotting out wowcensus stats like they mean anything when they don’t because they either don’t understand how statistics work, don’t understand what the census figures actually mean, are being dishonest to protect the status quo, or all of the above.
Here is the actual problem: WoWCensus doesn’t tell us anything meaningful because it deals in character data, while queues and other markers of meaningful participation deal in player data. I hand-leveled 11 alliance toons to 120 this expansion, 2 horde toons with tokens, and a 3rd horde toon with my shadowlands 120 token. There are people who are complaining that 50 character slots is not enough.
Character data is not a mark of player data because we lack some very important information.
We don’t know how many toons your average player has, and how many of them tend to be what faction.
We don’t know how many players tend to favor one faction over the other and to what extent.
We don’t know how much time players tend to spend on a single toon, and what the average breakdown is, in minutes played, between alts, between factions.
All of that is data we would need to have in order to WoWCensus to be anything other than trash data, and we have none of it.
Queue times are the best data points we have. The Mythic raid leaderboards on the WoW website are the second. The combined mythic+ leaderboards on raiderIO is the third. PvP leaderboards are also in there somewhere.
The alliance has plenty of characters, but nowhere near enough players spending time on it. Groups are harder to find and content is completed less often because of it. And this isn’t because more people just happen to “choose red”. This is because people are making an active choice with little to no barrier to that choice, to go where people are spending their time.
The key word there is “spending”. It’s a valuation proposition. Time on the alliance side is less valuable than time spend on the horde side because of various reasons. This is also why it’s a solvable problem.
The original PvP quest, back before it got nerfed due to horde QQ, was the correct way to go about getting people to spend time on the alliance. The fact that people playing horde felt it was unfair is proof that it was working.
When you are in a superior position anything that brings equality at your expense is going to feel unfair, and the problem here is that the wow population, due to the fluidity of faction participation, is zero sum. Especially with expansion pre-orders giving you a 120 token and free ilvl 388 greens. Barriers to faction participation right now are at an all-time low.
…and there is zero real incentive to play Alliance. Other than the social costs of losing access to friends.
So, when is faction imbalance going to be addressed? My guess is never. They’ll try to fix it quietly, and continue to fail because the lead dev is a horde fanboi.
How can it be fixed? You have to increase valuation in the under-valued faction and make it worth people’s time. If there are no meaningful differences between the factions, incentive is the only way. …if there are meaningful differences, say the devs enjoy developing one faction more than the other and it shows, then the incentives are going to have to be even greater to compensate or the devs are going to have to start actively caring about the other faction. Good luck there.
“But…giving the other faction free things isn’t fair!!!”
Put on your big-boy pants for once in your life.
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You complain about things you’ve never said, and yet you affix things that were never said to others. Seems hypocritical…no?
Its in this thread where you state it though.
See? Not hard to admit it.
Well said. Good read, would read and will read again. This person gets it in spades. Akston, Itlatn, Mcbeardy, when you get a chance, read this. Not that i expect you to agree with it, but it’s a good read.
I wish i could like this post a thousand times. Thank you for taking the time to make it.
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What exactly are you implying you want done?
To force people to swap sides? To not allow people to make horde toons? Remove the faction divide?
Your complaining about it, and everyone already knows it’s a problem, but I’m not seeing and suggestions on how to fix it.
Clearly bribing the alliance didn’t work long term. Despite how heavy handed it was. And making it even more heavy handed is just going to make people angrier than they already were.
In this instance you are right, i am the one who assigned the word gospel to you using that. YOU actually never did say that.
Let me know when you find it. Like i said it’s all there for you to re-quote if you want.
Quoting things out of context to make a point is against the TOS, i suggest you NOT do that. Just a friendly reminder.
Report me if you felt I broke TOS then.
Clearly I did not, since I pointed out you agreed with me on that point. Thanks
Alright, it reads like you used the post below to reinforce the one above. No need to report, just making a friendly reminder is all.
Dude, you get too riled up over things.
No one is disagreeing the alliance is having issues, but everyone is tired of hearing the screeching.
Suggest something, or just be quiet about it.
I don’t complain because I am not doing anything to resolve it on my end. It just annoys people and gives the alliance stereotype.
Right back at you dude.
Got it, it’s an emotional thing for you. At least you admit it, and that is ok.
I mean…I have so…
Cute, you have nothing else to say you’re going to parrot my previous statements. Even though it just proves you’re entirely emotionally driven.
So have i, in many other threads. Remember yesterday when i told you to go read my post history…yea.
I’ll admit i took the opportunity to use the emotional thing…but it was more of me understanding you then anything, and i wasn’t surprised that you were emotional about it at all. It’s ok to be annoyed and i have said what i have had to say and posted to those who post to me, what more do you want me to say about it that hasn’t already been said?
That post above made Ollin in post 383 pretty much says it all. Nicely written and posted.
It is a problem. People wanting to shelf it as a non issue are just fooling themselves. The bigger issue is that it always starts from the top and works its way down.
If Method announced one day that Alliance racials are far superior for WF progression and actually succeed other guilds will follow suit. Then the realm first guilds will follow and then it’ll trickle down to other guilds ect. ect.
Personally, I’m not sure how you achieve true balance. Would definitely take quite a bit of brainstorming.
Ain’t no one going to do that. If you have suggestions, bring them here. Otherwise you’re just doing nothing.
The first step to improving one’s discussion skills is admitting when you’ve made an error and acted without logic.
If you need a vent, find a discord or something dude.
Implement incentivisation to even out player participation between the factions in a way that will keep the under-represented faction properly incentivized. So yes this means that if the situation is ever reversed for any reason, the other side will then get incentivized.
No. No. And oh hell no (not ever).
Simply make playing the under-represented faction valuable enough that people choose to spend time playing on that faction. Keep your toons from the over represented faction. If you honestly believe that he horde is cool enough to play it in spite of a bunch of incentives to the contrary, then power to you. Go do it. Just don’t expect to be rewarded for it until/if the other shoe [ever] drops.
That’s because the average response to any suggestion is a cavalcade of horde posters telling us that it’s not a problem, we don’t know what we’re talking about, we just don’t want to have to work for anything, we just want free loot, and that an imbalance doesn’t actually exist.
That’s because the incentive wasn’t available long-term. The devs nerfed it into uselessness because the horde cried and moaned about it.
I mean, normal raid gear? You can get that from a mythic3 weekly chest or any mythic6 dungeon. It’s trivial.
Trivial reward = not a reward. Hence we’re back at a 25% bonus. If you want a reward to work long-term, it has to mean something first.
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That is their choice, but i am not rewriting a book because they are too lazy to click a few buttons.
I never said i was emotional… you said YOU were, and you have said i was. And you keep trying to say i am, but it still isn’t true.
I have no need to vent, i am just sitting in que Horde side to level more of my toons and enjoying the forums along the way thinking about my 24th anniversary dinner last night with my wife and wondering how my kids are doing.