They lost villainous leaders because the narrative recognized them as being villainous. They didn’t just say, “Well it’s unfortunate that Sylvanas had to kill all those Night Elves, but you know, they had it coming, and it was actually for the greater good. At least she’s not as bad as the Lich King was!”
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You’re in the wrong thread. This one’s about how the Horde followed someone who order something evil, but we should move on.
And of course I won’t take your bait when you’re purposefully trying to move the conversation somewhere else.
“I played Horde because I wanted to be a hero. Where’s my old Horde at?!” is exactly the question here. Exactly the only thing that makes Tyrande smile in the new novel when Thrall is talking to her. That Sylvanas is the villain, and bringing her head back would make even Horde members the heroes again.
At least that’s the out Blizzard is giving itself and the Horde.
Though, of course, the “I like playing the Horde because I want to be evil!” players don’t like that.
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I fully disagree.
I don’t approve of Sylvanas, but it is not in any way, shape, or form a fabrication to say that the Forsaken were completely, totally, wholly, and objectively built on Sylvanas. Without her, who are they?
No one.
Nothing.
Nathanos was cool. I regret losing Nathanos.
Gallywix was funny but I largely agree with you about him.
But Saurfang? I vehemently disagree with you. Wholeheartedly. You are objectively and factually wrong about Saurfang.
It's not bait. Or me trying to redirect the conversation. Heck, it's the main premise of my post that you originally responded to...
You called that into question, suggesting that the Horde’s villainy is actually not really explored, and is just overlooked and forgotten as everyone complains about Alliance wrongdoing. The wrongdoing that’s never resulted in negative repercussions or villainous framing or moments of introspection for the Alliance.
And both are examples of Horde players grappling with the obvious villainy of the Horde and its consequences as they play out in the game’s narrative.
But this doesn’t happen on the Alliance side, because the Alliance either doesn’t do villainy, or if they do, the narrative/players don’t really have to engage it all that much.
Because the Alliance is nearly always framed as, at worst, the lesser of two evils in every single conflict they find themselves in. I mean, sure they slip up- but why bother examining or calling them out on it? Those guys over there are even worse! Get’em!
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You’re wasting your time on Amadis. Pellex made an entire thread of the many times the story bashes the Horde player over the head over how evil the Horde is. Amadis posted in that thread IIRC. He’s well aware that he’s wrong.
This is all I said about Saurfang : ‘‘was the one who first led the assault in Night Elven lands and made the genocide possible, mind you’’
Which part is false?
Also, I’d say him going out in a blaze of glory like he did is best for him than whatever he could have done more while alive. Dude was ancient for an orc and got like 4 CG cinematics, his much desired warrior’s death and a grand public funeral. Meanwhile the Nelves who got genocided got… to be part of a side-plot in 8.1 that didn’t amount to much.
The Forsaken weren’t anything either even when Sylvanas was warchief, it was all Sylvanas all the time and the Forsaken were merely her pawns to be used as the plot demanded. That’s on Blizzard for not developing them more beyond the evil undead elf woman.
You are one of like 10 Nathanos fans worldwide, I think he is legit the most disliked character in the entire game.
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That isn’t even what I was bringing to bear. I quoted what I was bringing to bear. But if you really want to say that people are guilty of Teldrassil’s genocide by transitive property (despite just one quest earlier Saurfang plainly stating that the Horde does not kill civilians and gives us a quest to save them) I’ll show you why your logic blows up in your face.
Anduin is at fault for not holding Genn et al accountable for attacking the leader of a World Power without provocation. That act is a Declaration of War.
Tyrande is at fault for not holding Genn et al accountable for attacking the leader of a World Power without provocation. That act is a Declaration of War.
Malfurion is at fault for not holding Genn et al accountable for attacking the leader of a World Power without provocation. That act is a Declaration of War.
Velen is at fault for not holding Genn et al accountable for attacking the leader of a World Power without provocation. That act is a Declaration of War.
Mekkatorque is at fault for not holding Genn et al accountable for attacking the leader of a World Power without provocation. That act is a Declaration of War.
The Council of Three Hammers is at fault for not holding Genn et al accountable for attacking the leader of a World Power without provocation. That act is a Declaration of War.
This is the power of the Transitive Property.
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When the Sin’dorei forgive Arthas and the Scourge. When the sun rises in the west and set in the east. When the mountains turn to dust and the oceans become deserts. Then and only then will the Alliance and especially the Kal’dorei ever forgive the Horde.
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Trace back the conversation you were originally responding to. It started with this:
Which is exactly as I laid out, and exactly the same as you are doing now:
Because the Horde is not facing its wrongdoings. Merely saying they won’t do it again is not facing what they did. This:
Is not the Horde facing its sins.
A person getting caught vandalizing going “Yeah, well, I won’t wreck places any more” is not the person facing their wrongdoings. Especially when they can’t even be bothered to look the person they vandalized in the eye.
Thrall, Baine, and Calia went to see Tyrande in Nordrassil in the new novel. Baine at best could be said to have followed Sylvanas for too long after Teldrassil - Thrall and Calia weren’t even with the Horde during it. And Thrall tries to whitewash Baine just as much as you’re complaining about, bringing up that Baine was imprisoned for turning against Sylvanas - when we all know his turning against Sylvanas had to do with Derek, which for all practical purposes was irrelevent to still following Sylvanas after Teldrassil.
The rest of the Horde? Hiding behind Saufang’s sacrifice.
Being told you’re evil is not reflecting on what you’ve done. Introspection cannot come from the outside, no matter how much Horde players complain about Blizzard calling out the Horde as evil.
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Honestly who in the horde should care if the night elves stew in hatred?
The night elves owed the Tauren a huge debt for pulling their butts out of the fire in the WOTA, but the night elves treated the suffering of the Tauren with cruel indifference that their demigod was responsible for, and actively assisted with the murder of their civillians through the Alliance.
And they were able to backslide on their supposed “protectors and healers of nature act” when it was the Alliance destroying nature to try to starve the Orcs out, and that was after the orcs saved the night elves in Hyjal.
Frankly, who cares if the Night elves are mad? They’re self absorbed, arrogant, and cruel neighbors even at the best of times. Part of why Teldrassil happened is because every time they get the option to do piss off another race that isn’t Alliance, they take it. The Tauren are horde because of their cruel indifference. The Blood elves ultimately didn’t join the Alliance because of their sociopathy. The Orcs would have had no reason to fight the nelves if the nelves didn’t start the fight first and repeatedly ignore the obvious diplomatic/trade options that would have kept tensions low.
To note, the Horde also cut down the trees, as Thrall’s advisor in Cycle of Hatred allied with the Burning Blade to destroy the forests to frame the Alliance to try to promote war between the Horde and the Alliance.
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That’s not the post I was responding to when I entered the thread. If you want to argue that tangent with Iamahighelf, you can.
So why, in the in game narrative, did Saurfang die, Sylvanas, Nathanos, and Gallywix leave the Horde, the Horde abolish the Warchief position, and why are former Sylvanas supporters being led around in chains, in game? These were response to the sins committed during BfA. The narrative does call the Horde and punish them as a result.
And has been pointed out by many many, this is not the first time the Horde has been down this path and that the narrative and playerbase have called attention to it. You’re acting like Blizzard and the players are somehow ignorant of how the Horde is cast as villainous and that no attention is ever called to any wrongdoing.
And you’re doing it entirely while avoiding the admission that the Alliance doesn’t ever get such treatment in the narrative.
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Wait, is that a retcon of the whole Proudmoore magically nuking the forests thing?
For the Horde to have introspection Blizzard would have to allow it and support. This is never going to happen. Horde just go from a faction locked in stasis to an atom bomb going off for no reason. Blaming players for that is just getting so old.
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Good. I’m glad the Alliance got dealt a blow that they’ll permanently be mad over.
Alliance players being smug about being the current crop of writers’ pet faction and wanting the Horde players punished for being outright lied to (Sylvanas isn’t Garrosh MK 2, amirite?) is the worst. I am absolutely being a bit more of a jerk on the forums than I’d like to be just because I’m sick of Nelf posters acting like the arbitrary and awful BFA story gives them the right to sneer at actual RL players.
Again, they thought that the Horde should get over the Purge and Taraujo like a week after the fact.
Maybe they should have taken their own advice?
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The post you were responding to was post 545, itself a response to post 544, that was a response to post 540, which was a response to post 539, which was a response to post 538, which was a response to post 536, which was a response to 534, which was a response to Iamahighelf’s post (533), which seemed to be a reply to the OP or thread in general.
If you’re going to talk about where conversations start from, you should actually see where they did.
You might have misunderstood my point:
This is a failing on Blizzard’s part. Because everything you listed, it is not the Horde facing its wrongdoings. It is as I described, merely saying “We won’t do it again” when neither the Horde or Blizzard deserves to be trusted that they won’t.
Bringing up that Blizzard is just as bad at writing the Alliance doesn’t actually contribute anything to that conversation.
I don’t think a retcon. Daelin cutting down the forests is still canon, as far as I can tell. Thrall’s advisor just made it even worse afterwards.
I don’t blame the players. I don’t disagree with anything else you said.
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Again, they thought that the Horde should get over the Purge and Taraujo like a week after the fact.
Maybe they should have taken their own advice?
No matter how many times you repeat yourself it doesn’t change the fact that a small camp being trashed in the middle of a bloody war that the Horde started =/= genociding a major percentage of a single race with the clear intention of killing as many people as possible.
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I think the bigger issue with the faction war narrative that the writers can’t seem to wrap their heads around is that someone responding to getting hit by a truck with poking the offending party with a stick does not make for an equal exchange. It doesn’t need to be equal, but it should be somewhat close.
Teldrassil was something that could not be equalled, flat out, in terms of impact. When the only counters to it are “Well, X almost did this!” then it’s failed as a morally grey event, because in order for it to be grey there needs to be an action that can be pointed to as equitable in terms of 1) Reasoning 2) Magnitude and 3) Long term impact.
Not that the playerbase can necessarily handle morally grey in the very few times Blizzard actually does it. The Purge of Dalaran is proof of that.
Edit: Oh crud, Ayaani has the same mog as me… I knew I should have swapped to a different one…
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I mean, it’s the best mog for Draenei pallies, no contest. I only use this or the LFD banana armor.
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