But as for their other powers and abilities, they are more akin to a mix between Rogues, Shadow Priests, DKs.
Their powers/abilities and the thematic focus/fantasy is in many ways the literal opposite to that of Hunters.
I mean, Rexxar since first seen in WC3 was a Beastmaster who used melee-weapons. Althoug, as with most major lore characters, it’s harder to place him in a specific box/genre.
I would say that in both those cases, it would be better to implement them in the same way as what they did with Demon Hunters. At least if you want a deeper realisation of their respective themes as opposed to just a set few abilities or effects.
Fair enough, although thematically, I would say that they are closest to that of Shamans.
Hey, that was enough to delete RSV entirely because it was “too similar to MM”. Because it used bows.
That said, we’ve had once ability directly from them (Silencing Shot), and another named after and thematically originating from them (Black Arrow). I’d say even Blizzard sees them as thematically related to hunters.
To be fair, Huln was literally completely retconned to give MSV a hero. So “lore doesn’t fit” clearly isn’t really an obstacle.
Yep, I agree. I’m not arguing for WC3 Dark Rangers, I’m arguing for a spec concept that captures the essence and theme of lore Dark Rangers. Magic-assisted bow attacks is right up the alley of hunters, especially RSV of old.
Elf Rangers use bows, ambush tactics, and nature magic.
Arthas kills Elf Rangers and makes them Banshees.
Banshees get free of his control, get their bodies back, and swap Nature Magic for Dark Magic.
Basically the entire “ranger” arc in Warcraft Lore.
So yeah, rangers are hunters just in WoW the hunters have mostly dropped the magic (since Legion) and always (mostly) used pets.
In the case of playable WoW right now, we could have a ranger class with thematic elements represented by normal elves, Alleria elf, Slyvanas elf and even support it with lore:
Sylvanas’ forced raised Nelf Rangers going back to Alliance
Dark Rangers on both factions teaching dark magic to other races
“Light” Draenei teaching enhanced light ranged
Set up a class with necromancy infused ranged attacks, nature infused ranged attacks, and light infused ranged based healing or whatever.
They also retconned Rexxar to now show as a Survival Hunter.
Blizzard logic.
I find that this line of reasoning is a bit flawed really, no offense.
In theme/fantasy, Hunters when using magical arrows/projectiles, they aren’t actually infusing them with magic mid-fight. In the RPG(WoW), Hunters rely on help from schooled magicians to infuse purchased/crafted arrows and projectiles with magic to be used later in combat.
For RSV in the past:
Explosive Shot dealt Fire damage, sure, but it wasn’t fire that was conjured by magic. It was an actual explosive device, similar to bombs you can make with Engineering.
Serpent Sting dealt Nature damage. But it(as well as all other stings) were themed after the idea of using animal venom/poison which you dipped the arrows/projectiles in.
As for Black Arrow, and Arcane Shot(while part of RSV), like I said above. In the RPG, Hunter’s hired magicians to infuse the magic into the arrows/projectiles used in combat.
This is even further highlighted in the modern game, if we look at the new starting zone: Exile’s Reach, in regards to Hunter traps that some argue are magical devices.
You literally have a quest in this new starting zone where you, as a hunter, ask a mage within the camp to apply frost magic to a mechanical device you have crafted/assembled, in order to make what we know as Freezing Trap.
I would argue that, apart from the fact that Hunters sometimes hire magicians to help with magical properties/enchantments, Hunters don’t rely much on magic.
And if we/people want a bow-wielding spec/playstyle which also makes use of magic, it should be added to the game as a fully fleshed out class. Why? There’s so much that can be done thematically/fantasy-wise when it comes to this.
Why lock it behind a class which isn’t really themed much around magic?
Rangers? Yes. Very much so.
Dark Rangers? No, not at all really.
Because Dark Rangers aren’t the same as Rangers(as portrayed in WoW).
Watching the ever going back and forth of “MSV sucks vs it MSV doesn’t suck” is I guess entertaining… I mean if there is a reason why blizz doesn’t pay much attention to beta class threads, you don’t need to look to far to see why.
That being said it is not just “Hunter” thing, there are many other threads with thousands of replays and hardly a blue post. At some point I have to imagine the beta posters kind of feel like “spitting into the wind” but wait lets take a break from actual constructive feedback to “rag on MSV”.
But I don’t really blame it on the players to much , more on blizz. More on an utter lack of communication. No we don’t expect a blue reply to every post but seeing 100s or reply and no blue post is so disheartening. Just communication, just talk to your bloody player base.
Not really? Many of our abilities are actually straight from Priestess of the Moon in WC3. Trueshot Aura in particular is literally directly from them. Eagle Eye is a spiritual successor to Scout, as was a similar talent for MM in Legion. Incendiary Ammo (both the Exotic Munitions variety, and then the scope enchantment) are both directly based on Searing Arrows from the PotM. Priestesses of the Moon are literal magic-users, Tyrande being their paragon.
As a WoW class, we’re certainly not casters, but suggesting that imbuing our attacks with some magical energy is unprecedented is absolutely false from a lore perspective. That’s especially the case since our class also clearly draws from the Sylvanas archetype, and she is literally animated as imbuing her attacks with shadowy magic.
Besides, if it gives you that much of a hiccup, imagine that the arrows are pre-enchanted from the same basis as Arcane Shot and Black Arrow ones are.
I don’t really. I’m not arguing for a caster here. I’m asking for an elemental-themed archer. You know, WoD and prior SV. RSV borrowed a lot from the Dark Ranger theme.
They literally are though if you read the Lore on Sylvanas specifically. She was the Ranger General after all. They simply follow the same brand of logic as the Forsaken playable race: they can use “good” magic (although with pain or discomfort) but are more comfortable/aligned with “dark” magic.
Was it? I was under the impression that both Explosive Shot and Serpent Sting were treated as magic damage in game despite alchemical/munitions or poison/venom being better thematic fits.
To be fair, that’s because “magic damage” is pretty darn coarse in WoW. Things are either physical or magic, period. There’s no middle-ground. And those classifications have mechanical effect.
Notably, neither Explosive Shot or Serpent Sting can be silenced, unlike Mend Pet. Serpent Sting can be dispelled, but as a poison, not a magical effect. Not sure if Explosive Shot can be dispelled, tbh.
The thing about what was mentioned earlier: Dark Rangers as well as Shadow Hunters, is that those aren’t just about firing a ranged weapon.
Besides Black Arrow(mostly the name reference)?
She was that, yes.
But she isn’t anymore.
And the idea that a Dark Ranger becomes what they are through dying-followed-by-being-resurrected-as-undead?
I mean, you can ignore this part in favor of simply adding in some abilities in reference. But if you’re not after the actual Dark Ranger fantasy then…why bother? Do you just want to be a hunter with a dark hood, firing shadowy shots while pretending to be a Dark Ranger or, do you actually want to play as one?
It was categorized/classed as magical damage yes. But that’s because the game has no category for actual Fire/nature damage that isn’t magical.
It has nothing to do with theme/fantasy. It’s just limitations with the current game design.
The original class designer Kevin Jordan specifically said in one of his streams that he/they did not intend for Hunters to be favoring magic as a primary theme/focus.
Looking at their attacks.
Yep, this.
As far as I can recall, no. Although it has been a while…
I mean, they had 4 abilities, and we had 2 of them (Black Arrow and Silencing Shot). The other two were already taken by other classes (Drain Life for warlocks and Mind Control for priests).
She carried over that ranger training to her archetype after being raised. That’s why she became a Dark Ranger and not simply a Banshee. Banshees literally existed as a unit in WC3, but Sylvanas still became a Dark Ranger.
You’re just bound and determined to split hairs here, aren’t you? How about the fact that MM is using an ability associated with being a devotee of a goddess? Why aren’t we complaining about not conforming to that fantasy?
Considering events between WoLK/Arthas, BFA/Slyvanas, and Shadowlands I don’t see why their couldn’t eventually be more undead of all races on both factions. (One could probably argue the characters will undergo a similar journey in Shadowlands anyway.) They are doing away with race restrictions on DK’s correct? Unless you want them to also very specifically be lady elf waifus. (Lets also ignore Nathanos training Dark Rangers in Legion.)
The underlying core of that transformation being that life is light and death is dark with neither being expressly exclusive though. However I’m speaking rather from a broader class design conceptualization that isn’t race restrictive like Demon Hunter. Basically opening up paths for the other races to take part in the hypothetical future incarnation of WoW where a new ranged class is added.
The signature design of Black Arrow was how it reanimated the corpse of the affected enemy into an undead servant, that wasn’t carried over to the hunter class.
Silencing Shot, while a part of the Hunter class, was originally implemented as an MM ability, wasn’t it? I don’t recall it ever being an RSV-exclusive ability.
Conversion from elven to dark
An elven ranger who dies and returns as a Forsaken undergoes a great shock. She can no longer cast elven ranger spells and loses her woodland stride ability. While some may choose to let things be, most immediately seek out a dark ranger to relearn their arts.
An elven ranger seeking to convert to a dark ranger must, of course, have died, returned as a Forsaken, and seek to learn the arts of the shadow rather than the wild. This ordeal is difficult, as the dark ranger must twist everything she was taught about nature to start learning her darker trade. Then comes the hard part. A dark ranger-to-be must undergo a lengthy trial, where she unlearns everything she was taught as an elf and learns the new arts of a Forsaken.
I just don’t agree that Dark Rangers in theme and fantasy fits the Hunter class to a high enough degree for us to have a spec/playstyle dedicated to that fantasy.
Never said anything about this. Never said that I agree with it.
If it could be, I’m sure someone has complained about it somewhere, at some point in history.
Edit:
Checked some old forum posts, Explosive Shot was initially dispellable but it was changed in an undocumented hotfix in early 2009 to no longer be dispellable.
Then you can’t really argue for a MoP RSV clone and put yourself in the camp of players that feel that there’s only 2 kinds of WoW Hunter: those that shoot (because there’s only one way to shoot duh) and those that whistle at furries.
To be fair, that was a completely different version of the ability. The current version could very well be dispellable. I’d have to go find a healer to test it.
I meant hunters as a whole. My entire argument thus far as been that hunters both currently and historically have clearly borrowed from the dark ranger theme as much as the other varieties of archer archetypes, and thus it makes little sense to protest against it. Two of their 4 abilities are or were hunter abilities at one time.
I mean, I don’t agree that the Rexxar/Huln-retconn theme does either, but I think we may just have to agree to disagree there.
You implied that the only way dark ranger would make sense is if we go full enchilada into the fantasy of it. So why’s it ok for MM to borrow and ability without the theme of PotM? And if it’s not, why aren’t you off campaigning against Arcane Shot and Trueshot?!
You decree that RSV is too Dark Ranger which doesn’t fit Hunter (and basically anything other than elf) on the one hand, yet on the other hand want to bring RSV back as a 4th spec.
You need to be consistent. You can’t have pre-Legion RSV clone built up upon a differing fantasy and skill set because that previous aspect is kind of important.
Likewise building up an entirely new lore basis for abilities that fit that same flavor/mechanical niche (pre-Legion RSV) wholly and utterly distinct from the Dark Ranger fantasy needs to pull from something.
Explosive Shot and Serpent Sting are easy because we have lots of explosives, poisons, and venoms in WoW. Black Arrow though? If you want to ignore/distance it from Dark Ranger then what would you borrow from for this?
If anything, they should add the Dark Ranger fantasy in as it’s own class.
Because both of those have been with the class since the start. And because they don’t contradict the very spiritual essence of Hunters and their teachings/way of being.
Dark Rangers are mostly about necromancy and undeath, about dark magic, which is the literal opposite to what hunters are taught/learn.
Saying that the Dark Ranger fantasy fits the Hunter class is like saying that the Unholy DK spec would fit as a 4th spec for Paladins…
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