Its an entire planet.
What I said was correct, I figured you were talking about when they destroyed the Dark Portal the first time at the conclusion of the Second War. Because you mentioned Gulâdanâs betrayal.
This is the basic timeline of events.
- Gulâdan betrays the Horde. They lose at Lordaeron and are pushed far south.
- The Siege of Blackrock happens, where Lothar dies. But Turalyon rallies to win the day.
- They track/chase Teron Gorefiend and his forces to the Dark Portal where another battle takes place. They win but, unwilling to go through to face the unknown, destroy the Dark Portal. This was the end of the Second War. And in this period when they build the internment camps.
- Khadgar realizes there is still a dimensional rift connecting Azeroth to Draenor, in spite of destroying the portal. Thus Nethergarde is built to stand watch.
- A year passes. Then Teron Gorefiend convinces Nerâzhul to reform the Horde. They reopen the Dark Portal using the Skull of Gulâdan to invade Azeroth. They do this with the intent of taking the Book of Medivh, the Eye of Dalaran, and the Scepter of Sargeras to open a portal to yet another new world to conquer.
- Then the Alliance Expedition, including Alleria and Turalyon, decided to go on the other side with an army to stop this. Then they decide to re-destroy the Dark Portal because the Breaking of Draenor was going to hurt Azeroth as well if they did not.
So again, it was not about Horde reinforcements coming through either time. The first time was because they didnât want to risk going through where they didnât know what was on the other side. The second time was because of the Breaking of Draenor.
Turalyon did not pursue the Horde. He had already pushed his soldiers to the breaking point, and he did not know what horrors awaited them on the other side. There was only one thing left to do: destroy the Dark Portal and prevent the Horde from ever returning.
Chronicle 2 p174.
Khadgar had recovered most of the stolen artifacts, but the damage to Draenor had already been done. The unstable rifts opening across the land would soon shatter the world and almost certainly kill everyone on it. Even worse, the destructive energies would blast through the Dark Portal into Azeroth.
After consulting with Turalyon, Khadgar knew what needed to be done. The Sons of Lothar would have to destroy the Dark Portal to protect their homeworld, and they would have to do so from Draenor.
p 195.
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Itâs a continent. And thereâs no evidence itâs any larger than the Eastern Kingdoms.
Closing the portal the first time had everything to do with preventing reinforcements from outland, even with Orgrims capture there was still a sizeable force ready.
Im not sure where the problem with my statement is in your arguement (or why you are arguing.)
They new exactly what was on the other side. A ton of orcs, and they elected to stop further invasion.
I just quoted you the exact line that is was because they were unwilling to go through to face the unknown.
Well Iâm arguing because youâre trying to incorrectly say the Horde was still on the cusp of victory at that point, which wasnât the case. Threat of reinforcements wasnât the concern, they had won rather conclusively by then.
Fresh Reinforcements from draenor wouldve been a disaster. Given the state of Turalyons men. What are you talking about?
They might be the same sizeish in game, but ITS A PLANET.
There simply wasnât many forces remaining willing to fight. Having gotten beaten conclusive post-Lordaeron, the Horde didnât have a chance at the point the Dark Portal was destroyed. Iâm talking about actual sources, which Iâve quoted from, that give their reasoning and the situation.
But it isnât a planet. Itâs one continent on a planet. And in-game the Eastern Kingdoms is much larger than the continent we see on Draenor.
Honestly, itâs a difficult call to make. The interment camps were wrong, but so would be genocide. The moral choice would be to try and offer some kind of reparations to them. Give them an actual home and extend the olive branch in hopes of a lasting peace. However, I am not sure if its thatâs simple.
The orcs present a cultural threat to Azeroth, as we have seen throughout WoW. Thrallâs biggest failure was not fully understanding the culture of his own people, a nomadic race that was build on war and conflict. Draenor forced them into their war-like culture, surrounded by hostile Ogres, Botani and Saberon, in addition to the dangerous wildlife, the Orcs had to fight for survival, and take what they need by force. Conquest was the only way to do things there, and thus it was the only things orcs knew how to do.
This is made clear with AU Dreanor and the Iron Horde, that the first and second War was not simply a clash between Azerothâs defenders and a the unfortunately demon crazed orcs, whoâs affliction was simply misunderstood by the humans. The Iron Horde made it clear that the first and second wars were a culture conflict more than anything.
Take that, and include their demonic hunger for violence given to them by the demon blood, and it becomes clear that a peaceful and moral resolution is likely to be a futile effort with pre-WC3 orcs.
So the question remains, do you try anyway? Or do you take the morally black plunge for the sake of a greater good? To safeguard you own people and culture? I think the internment camps were simply a half-measure, and a weak solution to a very, VERY hard decision.
BOTH sides were battered. It isnt their reasoning, its yours.
And not only were there plenty of clans ready to fight in draenor, but there were plenty still in Azeroth.
The dragonmaw clan was still breeding dragons (having been one of multiple clans to miss the battle of blackrock) the Bleeding Hollow arrived at the portal late and decided to flee into the forests, and lets not forget the True Horde under Blackhands sons.
If the reformation of the Horde in less than a year tells you anything, its that there were plenty of orcs to go around (that Horde word is liberally used.)
Draenor is a planet.
Yes, and one side was more battered than the other.
No, they are direct quotes from the lore. Whereas youâre the one giving your headcanon view on it.
And hereâs some more lore.
The invasion of Azeroth had been a desperate attempt to escape a slow death, and it had failed. The orcs did not have the strength to try again.
Teron Gorefiend, however, was not prepared to give up. He had seen Gulâdanâs plans unravel, but he had also witnessed moments of incredible power. Conquering Azeroth? Perhaps it was impossible. Yet Gulâdan had gleaned knowledge from Medivhâs mind, and he had told his death knights that there were many potent artifacts out there that were vulnerable, ripe for the taking.
Chronicle 2 page 182.
Thing is as far as we know Orcs never inhabited any other continents on Draenor, and didnât have any significant naval tradition.
We know the Ogres think there is/was at least one more continent out there where they came from and their Empire was founded, but they would hardly want to work with the people who toppled their empire.
Do you actually read this stuff or do you just copy and paste? The first entry in Turalyon âreinforcesâ my claim on how dire the Alliances situation was.
We are talking about the first closing of the portal now.
You failed to mention the Shattered Hand and Warsong clans, both untouched and thirsting for blood.
âThe Horde did not have the Strength to try againâ is from Nerzhuls view after staying on a dying draenor the whole time (i have the chronicles too) he wasnt exactly aware of the complete situation across the portal, and he was in a bleak mood, drawing skulls on his face and having some issues with the elements.
You need to separate character viewpoints from lore.
Thing is, its not my âheadcanon,â people tend to respect you more if you actually argue.
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The orcs toppled that empire, meaning that pre invasion they were on that continent too. So yeah a whole planet.
After the Second War, the only thing anyone knew about the Orcs was that they were alien invaders from a different planet, and that their sole motive was the complete extermination of the Humans, Dwarves, Elves and Gnomes and take Azeroth by force.
When the Alliance initially pushed the Orcs back through the portal the first time, they came back! Whoâs to say they wouldnât keep coming again, and again - until they finally succeeded? Or if you dropped them off on some other continent, that they wouldnât make their way back to continue waging a war of genocide?
I get it that everyone wants to be âwokeâ, but in the context of what was known after the Second War, the only responsible action the leaders of the Alliance could take was to simply exterminate the Orcs. Their responsibility is to their people - the people who just barely escaped being genocided by these monsters.
Hindsight is 20/20, and we knew more about the Orcs after the Third War, but in the context of what a responsible leader should have done after the Second War and the context therein - itâs pretty clear.
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Do you actually read it? Youâve yet to give one source. Here, let me give you another.
In time, Orgrimâs messengers returned from Draenor with bad news. The clans still on that world had descended deeper into bloodlust and had begun fighting with one another. Only a few skilled, disciplined orcs and a handful of ogres would be able to bolster the Horde.
Chronicle 2 page 138 from right after the First War. Their infighting made it so they couldnât/wouldnât reinforce the Horde.
Yes, and those descriptions of the situation was directly after the first closing.
Why would I? Iâm not denying the Horde utterly lacked any soldiers, but the clear depiction that they were in no position to win. They werenât untouched either, they were fighting each other.
No it isnât, it is part of the third person narration.
No, because that isnât his viewpoint. Thatâs simple untrue.
Sorry, Iâll try and give less sources like you do and just engage in wild speculation in the future.
Actually its entirely possible the Ogre Empire underwent as split similar to the Roman Empire and there is/was another continent out there.
Also even if Draenor is a super continent world that doesnât mean its bigger than the Eastern Kingdoms, since the world could be a higher percentage oceanic than Azeroth.
My speculation is by no means wild (struck a nerve?)
Thing is, I actually play the game mr. 110.
Devolved into blood lust or not, Getting them focused on conquering Azeroth wouldnt pose that much of a problem with Grom Hellscream as chief of the Warsong, and with Nerzhulâs spiritual leadership (because a few pages later they agree readily to Nerzhuls plans.)
Also, weâve forgotten the poor Thunderlords! And the Exiled Frostwolves (unlikely as their participation may be.)
Also I though we were discussing why the Alliance shut the portal? I said reinforcements, you said because they didnt know what was on the other side.
Very well, ill throw in the whole parapgrah to show you it is from Nerzhuls view.
âFor Nerâzhul, there seemed to be no way to save the horde from doom. The Invasion of Azeroth had been a desperate attempt to escape a slow death, and it had failed. The orcs did not have the strength to try again.â
Third party narrative might be explaining it, but its pretty obvious that this info is from Nerzhuls view. (For Nerzhul, is a big hint. Shame on you.)
I tend to paraphrase, rather than relying on copying and pasting my arguements mr. 110.