What would you change in an arms warrior rework?

Classes Warrior
81

Says the guy who only cares about mythic and made a fool of himself in the other thread because you were not looking for a realistic conversation with the OP

82

I never said you wanted the damage immunity of it. You explicitly replied to my quote that assumed you must, despite your wording, want less than all the CC immunity of Divine Shield to say that no, in fact, you wanted all of it.

You’ve also changed what you want immunity to 3 times over this thread. I suspect now that’s for conflating terms, but that crap makes it damn hard to know what you actually want.

To be clear, here are the forms of CC:

Snare – reduces your movement speed.
Slow – reduces your attack speed.
Root – reduces your movement speed by 100% but is broken from sufficient damage taken.
Stun – prevents control of character and movement by player’s own means, except via actions explicitly usable through stun.
Fear – prevents control of character except via actions explicitly usable through fear but does not stop movement; broken from sufficient damage taken.
Incapacitation – prevents control of character except via actions explicitly usable while incapacitated; broken from any damage taken.
Charm – prevents victim’s control over their character but is usually breakable via damage taken, cleanse of a magic effect, or interrupt of the afflicting caster.
Disorient – now identical to incap, but on a separate DR.
Polymorph/Transformation – prevents most actions, but not movement, but usually (including on the actual Polymorph spell) bundles in a disorient.
Terrify – fear, but arbitrarily renamed to avoid Tremor Totem, Fear Ward, Lichborn, Berserker Rage, etc.

You can, as a PvP talent, likely see stun immunity added to Berserker Rage and Avatar to grant a temporary extra charge of Berserker Rage OR maybe, baseline, have Avatar to cleanse one stun (though I doubt you’ll like holding it for that if you remember later that Prot or Torments exist) OR have Berserker Shout be talent able to offer partial immunity (a la Death’s Advance) to roots and snares via a PvE talent.

83

At this point you are just trying to belittle me on purpose, while i already told you what i meant.

I already said i want to solve a problem warriors face in PVP being easy to kite and our mobility being hindered easily by other classes → therefore i proposed some sort of rework with Avatar to fix the problem, with the immunity to some of the CC i spoken about

I don’t want avatar to simple grant everything there is to grant and remain the same, neither want to be a full on divine shield with 20s duration.

And i didn’t change anything it is clear what i wanted if you didn’t came with the intention to belittle, because i already posted before:

The one post you quoted me btw.

I might have added fear without noticing cause i was thinking on bladestorm, but i still think the point is clear.

And again to be clear: Im talking about Slow, Roots and Stuns.

I can live without stun immunity, but I think avatar should 100% grant immunity to slow and roots, like it did in MOP. Maybe not by its full duration, but it needs it.

I don’t want then as pvp talents because if it was already baked in the ability would not affect PVE and pvp talents are already capped in some choices that are almost mandatory

Like i said, im ok without stun immunity(but would not mind if we did have also), s, but roots and slows are the most glaring issue that need to be fixed.

Personally i don’t want Berserker rage to be tied with it, cause it would conflict with utility to remove fear, i don’t want another node to waste, so my choice would give Avatar immunity to roots and slows for like 5~8 seconds after you cast it

84

Avatar
90 sec cooldown

Transform into a colossus for 20 sec, increasing your damage dealt by 20% for 20 seconds. On activation, Avatar also removes all roots and snares and prevents your movement speed from being slowed for 8 seconds.

If you make it a pure immunity, you’d cause the necessary DPS CD to break certain (sometimes necessary to avoid death or raidwipes) PvE mechanics.

85

I addressed that:

That seem perfectly fine to me, and i reiterate that it needs to be slows and roots.

If PVE people are doing fine without it, they will be fine saving it

86

I would love big PBAoE smashes. It would be so much cooler than the “Fury but slightly slower”-design we have now.

1 Like
87

PvE people are not “doing fine without” Avatar. It’s an obligatory talent.

And again, the only difference between immunity to snares and roots and not being affected by snares and roots is for PvE, so why would you have make popping Avatar in certain fights kill you for no advantage in PvP?

88

They are fine with Avatar not granting immunity to slow or roots, so they can save Avatar and not use for the PVE mechanics you spoken of

89

You realize that means delaying “5~8” seconds of their full burst up to every 90 seconds? It’s a damage CD (and should remain a damage CD, at least until equally enjoyable, alternative control over damage dynamics is given with equal points of access in the class tree).

And they’re supposed to be fine with that just because you would rather differently word the effect for what is an identical result in PvP anyways?

Look at Death’s Advance. There’s a reason why it’s written that way.

90

No i don’t realize that, i genuinely don’t understand what is the problem you are trying to create by adding something the skill didn’t had before.

I mean, you were perfectly fine by backing that into berserker rage which is our way to get out of fear, so i don’t understand how this is a problem now.

You are claiming that, if avatar indeed grant 5 seconds of immunity to slow and roots, PVE people will feel forced to use it to avoid mechanics and waste the damage CD, isn’t that correct?

And i say: then don’t use to avoid the mechanics, you are already doing the mechanics without it, save for the damage window, or don’t, your choice

91

Arguing for Avatar to provide Snare/Root immunity for the whole duration is silly and shows how out of touch you are with game balance, how you just want anything you play to be overpowered and have no counterplay.

This was the original design for it on the launch of MoP and then got swiftly nerfed to only breaking snares/roots on use. This was due to how overpowered it was for PvP.

1 Like
92

If you had actually read the conversation and not just trying to be condescending you would see no one is asking for that

Literally the post above yours i said 5 seconds after you cast Avatar

93

Brother I read the whole convo, it hurt my head reading your reasonings.

2 Likes
94

So you decided to make a strawman and act condescending, got it

Would be better to not say anything if you do not want to discuss, but you do you.

95

Immunity prevents debuffs from forming and purges existing debuffs. This can in turn cause radial AoEs triggered by the removal of those debuffs, etc., or prevent beneficial debuffs from saving you, to cause the deaths of you or your raid members.

No. I’m saying there are cases where one cannot use the likes of Blessing of Freedom because getting a delayed-detonation debuff randomly while it is active can then kill those nearby by setting it off instantly. Now you’ll have forced a major offensive CD not to be used for fear of killing those nearby.

In other cases, it instead just prevents the mechanic entirely, in which case it can again cause deaths if you needed that debuff or be a buff if you’d rather have avoided it. But consider: Freedom is a damage loss to use and lasts a very brief duration. Avatar is not.

“Well, in order not to break the fight via this thing that is normally avoidable and never put on offensive CDs precisely not to create conflict between using your rotational CDs and not murdering your party, just don’t use this core offensive CD.”

96

Ok, with you so far.

You are arguing that, by removing the debuff - a slow or root - you will get killed, because the mechanic is that if the debuff is removed you die or kill your party

Or, that if you are immune to it - meaning the debuff cant actually affect you - it will also proc the mechanic that will kill the entire part

you want me to entertain this very specific niche scenario that Avatar SHOULD NOT grant immunity to root and slows, because pvers will have to wait to use a major offensive CD?

Ok, so? the alternative is you not doing anything against classes who really heavy on roots and snares?

So, who i going to get the end of the stick here? PVErs who can just not use a skill/save for another moment, or PVPes who can sit and wait to die?

Seems like we already have different answers for both of us

97

Broodtwister is quite literally this mechanic at the moment.

1 Like
98

Given that there is absolutely no difference to your PvP experience between the BoF approach and the DA approach and the prior would cause CD holding while the latter would not, yes. PvEers should not have to wait to use their offensive CD over a conditional kill/wipe-switch.

No, the alternative is you not being slowed by snares (“Movement speed cannot be reduced”), rather than being immune to snares. In PvP, the two effects are identical. In PvE, they are not.

99

If you are saying that not being 'slowed by snares" will stop roots from affecting you for the duration, then so be it, as long as it fixe the problem.

I honestly don’t remember death advance stopping mage ice bullcrap, but i didn’t got my dk for this season yet.

100

You realize “ice bullcrap” has included stuns, roots, incaps, and snares, which are each completely different categories?

But yes, Death’s Advance will make snares not affect you without making you immune to them, which is a crucial difference in PvE.

Every fight with a root has to choose whether to cause immunity to prevent the mechanic entirely (which can wipe you if you need the debuff) or cause it to skip its intermediate stage (i.e., to trigger on-removal effects instantly, which is helpful only if you’re prepositioned). That’s a negligible enough difference to work around… so long as it’s not part of class’s rotational CDs.

Which is why snare/root immunities are not applied to rotational CDs (nor, as far as I can recall, to oGCDs with persisting effects — instead favoring removals since you can thereby choose when to use them, whereas a persisting effect would prevent you from using it at all when you have a chance of therefore triggering a lethal early activation).

Tl;dr: Just don’t put immunities on rotational offensive CDs. You can put removals on rotational CDs and you can put immunities on discrete utility that is of no offensive use, but never put immunities on rotational offensive CDs. Don’t do it. Simple as that.