Lol, yeah she certainly wasn’t trying to obtain her own army of Valkyr so she could raise everyone as her obedient followers. Certainly wasn’t attacking Odyn’s people and possibly putting us at war the the Valajar and preventing us getting the Aegis.
Sorry, even if you pretend to ignore this it doesn’t go away.
Sylvanas was the reason I slowly stopped playing retail. I was never sold on her reasons to go to war and it all felt like another scheme of hers. Everything since then makes me feel like she is more and more dishonest with the Horde. Her biggest argument that you cannot trust the Alliance and that a simple preliminary strike will keep both sides isolated to their continents (despite it being made clear in the books that she wants to cross over and kill everyone in Stormwind and forcibly raise them to her side) never held water for me.
For me to flip sides I would need a situation where the Horde loses, Anduin offers peace only to be killed by Genn and Sky Admiral Rodgers who then order Saurfang and Thrall on the Exodar to gun down all the surrendered Horde who followed her with the Exodar. Then we rescue Sylvanas and help her save what is left.
A. Go read what I said again. I said my character, not Sylvanas.
B. What Sylvanas was doing is none of Genn’s business since she wasn’t aggressing towards the Alliance. He is the one who incited war in Stormheim.
C. Odyn values strength above all. He was going to give the aegis to Skovald/The Legion if they defeated us. As long as we passed his trials, we were getting the Aegis.
Considering how badly he wanted his Val’kyrs? [Doubt]
This. I mean seem to be the cornerstone to his whole deal, I mean hes gone to crazy lengths to make the Valkyr I doubt he would deal with us at all if Sylvanas had gotten away with Eyir.
We are just lucky Genn managed to stop her by smashing the Lantern.
Sure he respects strength but likely he with held onto the the Aegis until we returned Eyir to him and we would have ended up gunning for Sylvanas anyway.
I won’t say I laughed out loud at this notion, but I breathed really hard through my nose.
This seems like a really weird form of victim blaming wherein you’re trying to tie in the conflict in Cata with something that happened some 20 years or so beforehand. The Forsaken invading Gilneas had nothing to do with Gilneas seceding from the Alliance after WC2. Garrosh wanted a port and Sylvanas wanted more corpses to exploit. Moreover, who gave Sylvanas, or the Forsaken, the right to be the arbiter over who deserves some sort of moral punishment over leaving the Alliance? Especially when Quel’thalas also abandoned the Alliance - you know, the Quel’thalas that Sylvanas was from, being an elf and all.
He probably would have just gotten another prime Valk’yr like he did when he lost Helya.
Eyir is pretty pissed at us when we run Halls of Valor “I witnessed their deeds in Stormheim. Their kind has no true honor, no true virtue!”
Odyn doesn’t care obviously since he’s friendly during the dungeon and happily hands the Aegis over after we beat up Fenryr and Eyir’s chosen champion.
Their war chief was trying to secure the future of the Forsaken, an integral part of the Horde. And since you presumably have read BtS, you know this: we are given her internal dialogue on the matter “I would have saved them” [had not Genn interfered].
Sylvanas’s actions in Stormheim were totally justified, from a Horde perspective.
Ironic considering in BTS she also guns down a heap of them for simply trying to remember their previous lives. I mean that entire novel is a mess on contradictions.
I also don’t get how getting more valkyr saves the existing Forsaken she already has. I mean can’t really raise more them more from the dead. If she intended to do what she did for Nathanos all the more reason for the Alliance to stop her as it requires a living Human sacrifice. Also meant she intended on taking the Horde to war anyway whioch would also mean more would die.
More likely she was just lying to herself when she thought that.
There is no path forward. The damage is done. We’d have to completely revise the past in order for me to even be able to consider trusting Sylvanas. There are so many things that would have to change that I can’t go into them all, but here’s a couple just to give a sense of where I am at:
First, she’d have to have never raised more undead. I’ve never been onboard with the “we need to find a way to make more Forsaken” thing. Why? Undeath is a curse. It’s a miserable existence as Sylvanas has been telling us for the last 15 years. Our efforts should be put towards either trying to cure it or letting nature run its course and let it fade away. Imagine if we treated real life afflictions this way. “We can’t let people with leprosy go extinct! We must find a way to give more people leprosy!”
The Forsaken aren’t a race. Not really. They are humans and elves with a condition. We don’t need to eradicate them but we also shouldn’t be making more.
Second, Sylvanas would have to actually, genuinely care about the well-being of the Horde and its peoples, including the living. I’m not going to support someone whose ultimate goal is to eradicate all life on the planet, including her allies. I’m not going to support someone who blights Horde soldiers who were defending her city because it’s inconvenient to have to move them out of the way first (and then follows it up with raising them). She’s never been shown to care about anything or anyone other than herself (and maybe Nathanos). Excuse me for wanting more from a leader.
Saurfang, for all his faults, cares about the Horde. Sylvanas does not.
Oh, okay. I see we’re not actually discussing facts but just your made up canon.
Carry on, then.
I presume your being obtuse or ignoring the plot point of the Novel then. She essentially kills any who don’t immediately don’t turn back. So even those who remained loyal and were on there way back are killed. So yes she killed a whole bunch of Loyal forsaken simply for meeting their living relatives/friends.
No, I’m well aware of the facts. I’m ignoring your hyperbole and spin. There’s no point in trying to have a discussion with someone who isn’t arguing in good faith.
I’m more than open to discuss it, Sorry if I came off that way.
I mean you were pointing out to one line in the novel where she may care about her people. However there is a significant portion of the Novel where she seems to be distrustful of her own people and seems to intent on removing any that seem to think differently from her.
It just seems like the writer seemed to be indicating one thing earlier in the book and then perhaps changed Sylvanas direction later into the Novel. Nor does the writer explain how she was going to save them with more Valkyr.
Maybe sylvanas was simply trying to convince her self that she was doing it for more noble reasons.
I’d join Saurfang if he stops thinking that removing Sylvanas will solve his problems. He can depose as many Warchiefs he may deem unworthy, another will take his/her place. The bloodlust and the vengefulness runs deep within the Horde. It’s time to accept that they are part of who we are, and that it would be better to find ways to channel and transform such traits into actions that would better benefit the Horde.
I’d join Sylvanas if she would stop thinking that she and her loyalists are utterly forsaken and alone in a hostile world. They’re not, never had been for a while. Most of the Horde leadership may distrust her, but they still accepted her. She already found for herself a new family, if she would just open her eyes and stop brooding way too much.
And as cliche as it may sound, the Horde is family. As Vol’jin said. The Alliance will never forget and perhaps nor will they ever forgive. We commited crimes, but we have to be in this together if we are to pull each other out of this mess.
Pretty much feel like iv been hung out to dry by both sides tbh.
But i guess here would be my thing to jump sides to one or another, sadfang stops betraying the horde and being an alliance puppet, prolly better to work within if you want change rather than to betray your side.
Sylvanas knew the tree was corrupted and thats was the reason for burning it (would be pretty ticked though they dident just tell us this at the start).
if the tree was corrupted, it was necessary to kill the people on it?
and you know that the tree was cleansed right?
There’s literally nothing that would get me to switch factions.
Although, if the Alliance inexplicably got Darkfallen, that’d be pretty close…
Not what I’m asking…
Again
There is nothing Saurfang or Thrall could do at this point that would make me choose their side.
I don’t trust them not to get mopey and abandon the Horde for expansions at a time again just so they can go be alone with their feelings.