I played SOD in season 1 but that was it. I heard that it went downhill in terms of feeling more like retail, I’m curious as to others experience in SOD and why people think it was messed up.
Well, I think it’s labeled as Season of Discovery as it’s intended to help the developer discover their stride, both in terms of what they are capable of, and what works for the playerbase.
In a lot of ways, I think that SoD has been very successful, and some of the ideas have been implemented quite well, and in other ways not so much.
So, to your question, what went wrong?
Expectations vs Reality
The first 2 phases had 10-man, 3-day lockout raids. Phase 3 came with community breaking changes for guilds built around that size and cadence.
I’d say that the single biggest thing we could point to would be that Phase 1 set the expectations as to what SoD would be to come by showing that swift action would happen to classes that were outlier performers (nerf hunter!), leveling was relatively quick, easy and (at least in phase 1) every accessible zone was relevant and active.
But with a cap of just 25, limited class toolkits, and 3-day lockouts on a 10-man raid, the tone was set, as were the expectations. Communities formed based on this, and continued to grow as such.
Phase 2 bumped the level cap up, brought in some more skills, and a new PVP event, as well as some catchup mechanics. On the PVP front, they also made some changes to numbers of people who could queue for a BG at the same time.
There was a pretty strong sense that the developers wanted to give everything to everybody, which can be a double edged sword.
People complained about class balance (I think this is one of the blanket complaints that you can find in any iteration of the game, so it’s hard to say whether it has any meaning). Some complaints around the rune system, and the P2 runes being “more of the same” that we had in P1, rather than some new and innovative ways to change the game or add quests or something?
But largely, Phase 2 was a continuation of Phase 1. I personally thought the Bloodmoon PVP event was excellent, and greatly enjoyed it. The new raid was again a 10-man raid on a 3-day lockout.
This meant that over the course of Phase 1 and Phase 2, entire guilds and communities that focus on raiding had build up around 10-man, 3-day lockout raiding. I don’t think this can be under-emphasized. Regardless of whether this style is good or bad or whatever, it is what was normal for the entirety of SoD up to that point, and that meant everybody who has started at level 1, leveled and grew into a part of a community experienced that culture.
And everything changed in the next phase. If you had built up communities around specific days/times, there’s a good possibility that the changes to raid size and reset cadence destroyed that or at least part of that.
It certainly changed the rosters people would have gotten accustomed to over the half-a-year prior to that.
PvP catered to the type of players that some of us wouldn't want to stand beside, while wearing the same tabard.
In battlegrounds, I don’t personally care if I need to join or assemble a team to compete or queue solo and am matchmade with other solo players, groups, etc. and face solo queuers or premades. It doesn’t matter to me. But what I do care about is being matchmade with people who throw games on purpose. I hate that. I don’t want to be forced into games with people who will call to “let them win” or “stop reviving” or “stop trying, and let them cap.”
In phase 1, the only way to ensure this was to form your own groups and remove anyone from them who exhibited this behavior. From phase 2 onward, this became impossible, but you could also just not participate in BGs, which also removes the possibility of being matchmade with such players.
Catering to this type of player, while also providing free/easy exalted status with PVP factions was kind of cool as a sideshow, but it definitely cheapens/devalues what the tabards represent.
Other - Overpowered Runes, and changed to classes that don't fit the class fantasy for some players.
There are so many other things, and I’m sure others will chime in with their ideas about class balance and/or skills, etc. But personally, I didn’t really mind most of those changes. Sure, runes made for a lot of incredibly overpowered character classes, but that wasn’t a big deal for me personally.
I did feel that some people, particularly those playing warlocks felt somewhat pressured into tanking, because that role was now added to the warlock toolkit, though a lot of them seemed to be drawn to the class for reasons other than tanking. But I’m not sure how much of an issue this sort of thing really is.
Anyway those are a couple of things that come to mind. While I did greatly enjoy SoD, I ultimately realized that it had gotten to a point where I didn’t even want to continue supporting it as an experiment, and (oh I forgot to mention above, but this might be the biggest thing) it has the loudest, complainiest community of any iteration of any game or community I have ever seen, and I personally find it distressing just reading the SoD forums (I have them turned off).
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It can be explained very simply.
When I went to ashenvale in phase 1, I simply said “inv to raid”, and that was that.
There wasn’t a need to check my parse logs. There wasn’t a need for me to be a broken spec in class. I just needed to ask for an invite to the raid.
This is the dynamic that made phase 1 successful. And then everything after that, due to inept design, made the meta about parse logs and only inviting broken specs in premades.
Tl;Dr – classic success is found through pug culture being accessible. SoD dropped the ball completely on this after phase 1
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Had this in another thread and it checks the “what went wrong with SOD box” for me. So here ya go.
2 Main issues.
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SEASONAL. There is so much negativity around this that any season is immediately fighting an uphill battle that they will never recover from.
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The “EVERYONE GETS EVERYTHING” core design CATASTROPHE.
Everyone has a Thunderfury, Everyone clears every raid, everyone gets rank 14 and now everyone is getting their Scarab Lord mount. THIS right here is the death of ANY MMO right out the gates. It may not become apparent immediately but it is 100% the main life draining force of any MMO.
I spoke on this exact topic before here.
x .com/Nekrage/status/1820293995332854155
That core design philosophy is so flawed that ANY content that SoD provides is completely null and void. It means nothing. There is no accomplishments to be had, nothing to EARN, nothing to set yourself out from the crowd. At that point, why even bother playing this “MMO”?
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They added too much. Characters do way too much damage and too many classes can do too many things. It’s too much like retail
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I cant believe im going to agree with a vulpera player but its true…
P2 and P3 gutted SoD, esp P3 with nightmare portal instanced gameplay
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There is a happy medium between classic and retail. If you wanted to make a classic+ you should focus on the things that make classic more playable without turning it into an “Everyone can do everything without any challenge” situation.
Remove debuff limit, add dual-spec, make it so that Druids, Warriors, and Paladins can all tank, Modify abilities so there aren’t 1-button rotations, change balance so it is closer to equal between classes (get DPS closer to equal, make things like balance druids or elemental shaman viable, make it so different players heal-over-times stack, increase buff duration so raids aren’t a constant state of paladin rebuffing) things like that. Shaman for Alliance and Paladin for Horde.
Adding a bunch of new (pulled down from future expansion) abilities isn’t a great solution. Having 6 classes be tanks isn’t a great solution.
Never set foot in sod, but to comment on the statement that there is a middle ground between classic and retail, there is not.
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Lets not get carried away.
Seriously tho… great points in this thread.
and not one mention of gdkp ban, because it wasn’t a factor.
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Maybe one of the main things that went wrong with it is that there are too many versions of the game running all at the same time. Many people play multiple versions. That leaves a lot less time to get as good as you could and should be getting in SoD if you did have full and unlimited time for it, which we do not. Current SoD is still fun so I wouldn’t give up on it…but it is mostly dead now if you aren’t playing on the weekends and aren’t on a good realm/server.
I was against most class changes from the start - I had some fun in phase 1 but I was already quite annoyed but a lot of the runes - from their overpower to their aesthetics.
However what really made me quit SoD and never look back was the community. So many rude players, afk-greifers in pvp, it was almost night and day from Era.
I think this was a factor for me in that I had even less desires to play with a community that is okay banning a system which lots of the members truly enjoy. And without GDKPs I would either have to farm for hours or buy gold to even raid by the time it got to naxx (unless major shifts from era were done about consumes). That’s doesn’t sound appealing to me.
But I probably would have left SoD anyhow how my issues with the gameplay grew each update.
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I think that while personally, my thoughts are that GDKP is a fine loot system and player agency is more important and righteous to stand up for than catering to those who are jealous and seek to harm others for their own benefit/enjoyment, I don’t think that banning GDKPs (or not banning them) is a large enough factor towards the success or failure of the game mode to really matter.
I would not spend time gearing a toon on a server with gdkp-ban, since there would be nothing to do with it.
- It would suck to gear because I would have to farm for consumes for each raid.
- It would suck to pvp with since that would burn consumes and force farming.
- And when it is bis, it is basically useless since raiding just cost gold.
I don’t buy gold, so gdkps are basically the only way to play vanilla competitively given my available time.
How many players are like me? I am not sure… But I know it can guarantee a gdkp ban will reduce population by at least 1
Well, I understand what your point is, and I don’t disagree. But I also don’t think that it matters enough that it would dictate the success or failure of the game mode.
For sure one of the “problems” GDKPs solve is that it incentivizes fully geared toons to play with others. I don’t think though that fully geared toons having nothing to do has ever been a major issue driving players to quit the game nor something we’d point to and say, “That’s why this game mode is unsuccessful.”
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I am mostly a vanilla player - I love fresh but also I really enjoy the era late phase.
So to me wow is about the end end-game. I want everyone to have a chance to gear their toons so the pvp becomes more and more about skill.
Banning gdkps basically just cuts that possibility out and thus kills my desires to play that game mode. I also have no desires to play tbc, wrath, retail even if they had GDKPs because they are modes that keep resetting instead of striving for good pvp.
So I agree the issue is deeper than GDKPs, but a gdkp-ban also instantly kills the possibility of long-term gameplay.
But your point is perhaps also highlighting why so many ‘wow players’, especially those that play retail, struggle to see why others enjoy GDKPs so much. To them the game ends when they are bis and they are simply waiting for the next thing.
Whereas to many vanilla gdkp raiders - there is no next thing, we want a system that is stable long term.
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I mean, it was just an afternoon to level it. Retail is silly. But Vulperas are hilarious. Not a furry!
But honestly, I can’t even change it. My phone insists on remain on the dumb vulpera.
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Sure, but seasonal is already predicated on that.
Anecdotally, for me, the most replayable content is PVP content after I’ve already fully geared. I would rather queue arena skirmishes with zero rewards than attend GKDP raids, or any raids — but that’s not to say I don’t enjoy PVE at all; I do.
Yeah. I mean, it’s some form of reward. In PVP, you can have fun, and improve, and it feels like a game. Like back in the day, playing Street Fighter II or something. You don’t need a reward, you just enjoy the game. But it’s an RPG, so you do actually need to spend time time to develop your character and gear, and that’s a huge part of the journey.
For PVE, maybe that journey is the game. Unless you just enjoy the experience, which I think some people definitely will and do. Some create their own mini-games or fun with parsing, speed clears, etc. I think learning mage solo farms is some quite compelling PVE gameplay. I could probably make a list of things that could easily keep me busy for the next few years if I wanted to occupy myself with things to explore in WoW.
But absolutely, for people who decide that the only thing they enjoy about the game is raiding, and they only log in to raid when someone else has done all the work of scheduling it for them… and they will only participate if they receive a reward for doing so… and they don’t want to put in any effort to prepare themselves beyond reluctantly logging in when someone has set up summons for them to get WBs… then GDKPs are about as good as it will ever get.
But honestly, then you’re looking at IronForge.pro and saying, “That’s the indicator of server population.” When how many of them are just logging in to raid, while how many people actively playing on a daily basis will ever even show up in those logs?
I don’t know where I’m even going with this now. WoW is such an interesting game world, game, and the people who play and enjoy it come in all different forms. And there’s something for all of us!
It’s pretty amazing, even 20 years later.
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I agree with you here 100%
If it wasn’t for GDKP i’d never raid these days but I’ve come to enjoy 1 or 2 naxx per week (2 does feel like a lot tbh but I’ve been gearing this lock so the reward directly translated to more pvp power).
A smooth naxx that can buy infinite consumes and have leftover is fun imo.
__
I do think pve parsing gets some element of the ‘constantly improve’ with near impossible best play - but it doesn’t have nearly the same fun for me as pvp does.
Pvp on a fresh server is also amazing fun
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The trivializing of the BG rep and honor grind. People that play classic like to go hard at it. Blizzard needs to stop listening to the dads who have 30 minutes a week.
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Started to suck bad once they choose to release Sunken Temple as a raid.
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