They have a Necromancer amongs their ranks. He can teach it to others. So they indeed have a way to resurect the dead.
That’s all they need. Some individuals for a start and a slow change in some Horde races. The Revantusk seem to be fine with them. Shadowlands also proved most of the Horde’s a belives of the afterlive to be wrong.
That’s only your view. The saddest thing is, a defense of Calia will change nothing in this regard. Let them all die, or become human once more? Both sound not like options.
This thinking of yours in this regard is also rather strange. I gave a solution for their survival which does not need to kill more humans. So it would indeed change them.
It’s basic anti Forsaken stuff.
Forcing Calia on the the Forsaken is the worst mistake Blizzard did in a long time, in regards to WoW.
I’m not a fan of the idea of giving alliance a forsaken AR, especially if they’re meant to soak up what little sympathy the original forsaken retain as a core horde race.
Could you expand on this? (honestly I do not understand).
My view is that the whole thing is consistent:
BtS is Calia studying the Light (post undeath) and the topic of leading the undead to “their loved ones”.
BfA shows that Derek / Calia despite of the whole Voss repeating “the living can’t accept you” were just fine on the alliance territory and welcomed.
the Shadowlands pre-patch states that Calia (and Valeera) do not belong to neither faction fully (currently) and that Calia wants to reunite the undead and the living.
edit: oh, and the people we see in Oribos are also those who accepted such reunion.
The question is, to use that plotline to destroy what is the forsaken, or to restore. My idea is to use that as a tool to keep the forsaken closer to who they were the version that made the players interested in the forsken to begin with.
p.s. actually to think about it, Voss talking about acting fast might be connected to it. To not allow others to see that Calia as undead is freely and fine moves on the alliance territories.
[edit: that would also explain the removed ptr line from the scene where Lilian met Calia, “Lilian’s machinations became clearer”]
Plus Maldraxxus. Have Primus teach them “proper” necromancy + how to create new bodies instead of recycling body parts from graves.
And Forsworn can find souls from the Maw to give them a second chance to avoid damnation, so now Forsaken get the additional flavor of “the damned”.
Nah, the 8.3 questline has Calia/Derek saying nobody would accept them; nobody has seen them. Jaina agrees and understands why they are leaving.
Could this have been a questline where a mob of angry humans try to burn Calia/Derek alive? Yes.
But narrative stands.
But giving the Alliance an Undead AR will literally drive the nail in the coffin for “We’re in an Alliance game and Horde is an afterthought” until Kingdom Come.
Forsaken characters finding closure, or overcoming suffering, things like that. The whole thing about dealing with the trauma they went through, and trying to fit in with a world that doesn’t see them as human anymore. I also dislike the idea of them being treatable but that depends on how it’s done. But them being treatable by the alliance just rubs me the wrong way, especially since that was supposed to be a reason why they ended up horde in the first place.
Besides, on a meta level, the alliance already has the worgen as a halloween race. And I strongly dislike the idea of the alliance of all factions having both of those, while the horde (a predominantly monster faction) wouldn’t. But there’s no valid reason for that race to ever want to swap over, so I’d rather not explore the idea of the forsaken crossing faction boundaries alone.
Calia says why she is leaving. Because she has sympathy to the forsaken that were part of Lordaeron. “They are my people, Jaina”.
I do not see reasons for why should it be the case.
But in general, making Calia the “light undead” was a shortsided decision IMO, bacause how much baggage she comes with.
(and yes, overall the execution on the story front is weak).
Ackshually, if the alliance option would go through, Genn might ask Eyir for some assistance. That would work in the “some undead quit their families and join the horde forsaken, because other option is inbearable for them” (and would actually be loyal to their “new home”).
But that won’t work without such roundabout thing.
IMO a big problem, that ever since MoP I am not sure there is much of a world like that anymore. But the themes might be saved.
the problems others might have with the forsaken, some forsaken might call “we made that”. Not all of course, some would say “the world made us do it”. And those takes IMO are not compatible, just like telling the story of both sides of the forsaken. With the devs we have, that would be 1 side dominating the narrative, so, keeping them together might not do much good. IMO.
Depends on what you mean. Light affect is not a cure, and a very cruel thing, that might drive some insane or to suicide ones those that who get all the feelings and realisation of their undead state.
/offtop
I always get a bunch of very heated answers, when I tell the story about why san’layn makes little sense narratively in the horde, and in the current state of the lore are a perfect fit in another faction (because void elves).
The current state of story was one of contributing factors to why to the question about factions and playing together the answer is no longer “no”, but “never say never”.
A couple more expansions undermining factions and praising “only together we can”, and that side of the game might be forever lost.
Giving animations to both factions is not that bad IMO as a middle ground. But I can see why losing uniqueness might be seen as a problem.
It’s not a swap. From Classic days there are forsaken that do not care about neither the horde, nor the forsaken. And they never had a room to be, staring with Kegan Darkmar (https://classic.wowhead.com/item=3711/belamoores-research-journal) who stayed with a human and both were killed by the forsaken (on a request of the forsaken to be precise).
In the current state of the story, the whole “the world rejects us” does not have much basis that can’t be explained by the actions of the forsaken themselves. So, how to keep the forsaken as close as possible to the concept that caused them to be a thing originally? That is what I wonder about. [and that is what drives my line of thinking]
I think my swap line wasn’t clear enough. I was saying there’s no story reason the worgen would cross over in exchange for alliance getting forsaken.
But I think the dev response about playing together was just about players being able to play together, not the actual in-universe races hopping from one side to another.
Once that line is crossed, there is no turning back. Just like with LFR. /sadface
IMO the point is not in “races” but in giving animations. Such as the horde does not have a human animations, but Nathanos-alike undead might be possible with some new Shadowlands magic™.
Or the horde might get draenei animations not only with ma’nari, but also mogu (with their side having more access and connection to the stories related to the titan-forged, making following Brann obsolete).
And the worgen animations are not unique to them, but also are available to saberons.
That’s true about the saberon, and while it’d be funny to think about each faction having the opposite’s animal mascot as a playable race, I don’t think there’s ever been a big call from players to have horde saberon. Besides, it doesn’t solve my earlier gripe of only the alliance potentially having both halloween-style races.
Honestly I dislike Nathanos-style undead and don’t want to see standing human models in the horde, though.
I’m not defending Calia. I am just facing reality. Like it or not, she is likely to take on some major role within their unlives going forward, so I’m just trying to find some solution reflecting that. Which is why I stated that it is important for BOTH Calia to change for them AND Voss to be built up equally.
And beyond Calia, no. The Forsaken are long overdue to move on completely from their Alliance of Convenience, and do need to develop into a race of people that are at least more symbiotic with the rest of the Horde. Rather than milking game mechanics to ensure an “Alliance of Convenience” can never get inconvenient for the other party. While arguing that “They Bring Military Power”, when they aren’t worth what they bring … especially post BfA. Not to mention, they rarely use that power for the Horde (looking at you MoP/Stormheim).
Calia shouldn’t be queen but should be involved in the council along with Voss and some other somewhat notable Forsaken NPCs representing civilians,military,apothecary,religion and the recent addition of night elf forsaken(likely involving Delaryn).Sylvanas was EVERYTHING to the Forsaken and had control of almost every aspect of their culture and way of life which in my opinion was a terrible idea to begin with.As much as the Forsaken detest the Scourge and claim that they have free will many of them act no better than the mindless zombies of the Scourge when it comes to serving Sylvanas resulting in a disturbing cult like behavior among it’s characters and even it’s fans.Even after being abandoned some of them refused to give up on Sylvanas and finally start thinking for themselves. I feel that rebuilding the council both honors the fallen council members that were murdered in the Before the Storm novel and also gives the Forsaken a chance to grow as a people rather than being a tool for Sylvanas.Let the voice of the Forsaken people be heard and not just the voice of their traitor queen.
Why limit it to soldiers? No seriously, if the story of Zelling taught us something, is that people sometimes NEEDS more time “alive” to deal with their personal bussiness, being those providing for waifu+children or wanting to explore Azeroth or who knows what else.
I don´t see the problem with Forsaken getting proper training in “death” stuff by Primus et al and finding a way to “grant” undead to people THAT DESIRES IT for their own personal reasons.
I mean hello, guys? Don´t tell me I was the only one that noticed how DIFFERENT is the reaction between both Amalia (who was raised in the middle of combat A.K.A. an stressful event) and Zelling (who literally ask to get raised and died in a “calm” way in comparison to a battle)? Cause Zelling literally wake up as a happy undead ffs!!!, while Amalia was the usual mindless PTSD mess.
Which vengeance, the one they weren´t even present for? Cause that´s part of the problem that generated the whole post-Cata fiasco… the fact the Forsaken race literally got sidelined in the achievement of their due revenge just to have a Male Human Pally and a Human Death Knight get the credit and the satisfaction for it.
If the Alliance side of ICC is the “canon” kill, then me thinks Forsaken didn´t get anything out of WotLK apart from the villain batting in Wrathgate.
The sucess on this depends how smart the plot focused on it is. Cause portraying Calia as an OP I-WIN button that magically “cures” the Forsaken with pretty words and a pat on the shoulder is NOT smart; quite teh contrary it demeans the actual trauma those people lived inot some “teenage behaviour thing” or something… and that´s an awful message to send.
Unless Calia gets ACTUAL first-hand knowledge on what did it felt and what did it mean to:
get raised AGAINST your will by an individual with malicious intent and with malicious purposes
have your free will suppresed to the point you literally torn to pieces your beloved family with your bare hands AND are nothing but an impotent witness of it (remember that undead woman in the “Road to Damnation” short story? Cause I remember… and Calia´s plight is a parody in comparison)
get violently rejected by former friends and neighborns based in the way you look -cause this is what happened back then: undead were deemed VERY dangerous and were kill on sight regardless of the particular behaviour of individuals. They look monstruous and were judged and condemned as monsters with no trial involved; if not let´s go back and check once agaoin the Zelling case.
Then sorry but she CAN´T provide ANY kind of realistic effective teraphy… simply because it will be impossible for her to RELATE. Irl theraphist DON´T need to be victim survivors themselves BECAUSE there are whole complete DECADES (as in several) of study supporting the technniques developed to help people… in the case of the Forsaken, this research doesn´t exist. Azeroth has barely a decade of dealing with the zombie problem to devise means to UNDERSTAND it, much less means to CURE the psychological/metaphysical sequels of it.
How about making them the providers of “life solutions” for evicted people like Zelling? No seriously, imagine if the Horde gets this whole system in which regular civilians can opt for an “extension of life by means of undeath” so they can finish their pendind business to their heart´s content? I say this would be a VERY attractive contribution to provide.
The Primus likely will feel some level of culpability for what the Jailer did (sending his mourneblade plans to Azeroth and creating the Scourge, etc). Most people have suggested he’ll give them “better” undeath (“hey look! our souls are right again! yay!”) - and maybe he will. I think there’s too much in common between Maldraxxus for nothing to happen.
Personally? I want them to get the ability to “revive/awaken/something” the feral scourge, to bolster their own ranks. Then, with their own necropolis, they can launch introductory quests that involve bringing scourge back to sanity (a lot better than “hey let’s go plague stuff!”).
I hate Calia as a character and I really don’t want some version of “the real way to raise undead is through the Light! let’s get all of you fixed up proper!” But she’s probably the new leader, so whatever, have to deal with it. Besides which there really aren’t many better options.
Blatant wish fulfillment would be if the vast majority of the Knights of the Ebon Blade joined the race and led it. Less than 1% chance of it happening, but whatever. In my opinion it’d be the best way to jump start the race. They’re the “good” undead.
Respectful disagreement from my part… frankly I think the Ebon Blade guys are lame in comparison -there I said it-, just not “the lamest” like Calia is right now.
Frankly, the civilian couple in the “Road to Damnation” short story is “traumatic” rank I always use to “qualify” the average Forsaken experience, cause it´s the closest to what most people in Lordaeron experienced back then. And it´s pure body horror.
As I’ve mentioned before, the best, most interesting and obvious answer would be to expand on the Desolate Council idea and make the Forsaken Azeroth’s first representative democracy.
They’ve had nothing but bad luck with monarchs, it fits in well with their will and freedom motif, and there’s just a lot of fun stuff you could do with that.
What are the concerns of unliving constituents? Would Lord Calston campaign on a promise of emotional support Murlocs for every mausoleum? Do abominations get just the one vote or several based on how many persons they’re made up of? How much is RAS and Big Alchemy effecting the proceedings with their lobbying? How involved is the Cult of Shadows?
There’s a lot of dark humor wacky fun you could have with that premise, while also expanding Forsaken world building.
But that’d require some thought. So they’re probably just going to staple Calia to them and shrug.
Sometimes I have a desire to say that the forsaken need a leader who would love them. Like Marcus. No one will be left without love. Not a single leper gnome or abomination (in addition to more conventional forsaken).
I can understand your point of view regarding them. They’re a bit off from the Forsaken and I’d even say a bit bland in the main story. The DK Class Hall (and the Four Horseman Short Story) both added some flavor (for me personally) but I can understand that everyone’s mileage on that front will vary. There’s also the whole “undead Paladin” aspect which seems to be somewhat of their core and it’s a little odd.
The main reason I would want them is simply because they have a group of developed heroes to bring onboard. I understand the desire to build-up some of the characters that the undead folks know (Velonara is criminally underused) but Mograine alone has more name recognition and a more developed narrative than pretty much any other candidate, plus pretty much any of them offer leadership experience. Nazgrim even thinks about the Horde sometimes.
I just think we’re stumbling headfirst into our prominent leadership group being “Summermoon, Menethil, Proudmoore, and Voss” and to me that’s just comical.
/I would love to see Tattersail, Proudmoore, and a revived Zelling on high seas adventures hunting pirates and treasure. This is the type of opportunity for neutral content that Blizzard shouldn’t miss out on.
//Don’t judge me but I still want Garrosh atoning under Theotar and then at the end of Shadowlands he and Kael’thas are sent to their final test, wandering Azeroth helping people. They live, they laugh, they learn, they SERVE THE TEA OR BE CRUSHED UNDER IT!
