As depressing as this all is, and it is extremely depressing and disheartening to know that Horde lives are completely disposable no matter if your chosen leader is ‘pure EVIL’ or ‘honor no matter the cost overdrive’ I got to say… you guys really brightened up my day comparing Baine to Jarjar/the Gungan leader.
I am laughing way more than I ought to about that.
I love how you open your response to me by saying they’re both terrible, but then you’re still trying to justify one over the other by saying Sylvanas killing Horde soldiers was necessary while Baine killing Horde soldiers was selfish and to appease the Alliance.
You can’t tell me they’re both inexcusable and then try to excuse one over the other anyways. Like, either they’re both terrible or both were ends-justifying-means, which is it?
I don’t know if you know this, but Sylvanas is no longer apart of the Horde.
I’m sure if you attack a bunch of US navy ships to kill the captains but “spare anyone who surrenders” then all the murders will TOTALLY be forgiven.
Oh, I’m very well aware.
Doesn’t mean I can’t call out the BS of people who thought her “ends-justify-the-means” style of leadership was at all acceptable in the Warchief position.
Like this.
Yeah, and at the same time I’m sure if you use scorched earth tactics during a defense of a U.S city and just so happen to murder your own soldiers in the process, you’re still ENTIRELY blameless so long as those soldiers admit that they were all out of position.
I don’t want it to sound like splitting hairs, but if those on board the ship are 100% aware of what Derek’s purpose is and what they are doing, then it makes the whole subject a bit more grey. If Baine feels that the plan to use Derek is beyond the pale and something he can’t stand for, that obviously puts him in direct opposition with her supporters as well. If they had no idea what was going on, I’d agree it’s pretty hypocritical.
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter, as it were. When two people claim the other is the betrayer, treason lies with the loser of the battle.
BFA Sylvanas was written as evil and stupid. BFA Baine was also written as evil and stupid, but while loudly declaring he was smart and good.
“I wanna rescue a civilian, so I’m gonna murder a ton of my loyal troops and conspire with my greatest enemies to do it instead of using my words.”
Yeah I was expecting the Forsaken to turn on Windrunner eventually. But I thought it’d be over
Instead she just reenacted the I Quit scene from How High outside Orgrimmar and, guess that’ll have to do.
I know what I’m asking for - a third option a available for Forsaken toons - wouldn’t be feasible but it legitimately bummed me out that at no time could I attempt to leverage my character’s identity as a hero of the Forsaken to try non-violent conflict resolution.
The ship one was especially gauling as I happened to be wearing my Forsaken transmog - dark blue armor with the Forsaken cloak and tabard. I looked like I belonged on the ship more than some of the NPCs! I can’t just pretend I’m on a classified mission or something and demand the items?
Hell I’d have been happy with just a line of dialogue to the effect of “This must be difficult for you - killing your deceived countrymen - but know your efforts are invaluable and will save more Forsaken in the end”.
Gilneans see themselves as Humans afflicted with the Worgen curse. Also not every Gilnean is a worgen.
The whole Horde was written as evil and stupid in BfA.
The writers just dug the Horde into such a massive hole with the mistake that was Warchief Sylvanas.
Those weren’t Baine’s loyal troops at all, and they were never loyal to Baine or the Horde, only to Sylvanas.
The Alliance aren’t Baine’s greatest enemies, they were Sylvanas’s enemies thanks to her tomfoolery back in Cataclysm. And you think Baine using his words was going to change anything? The only thing Baine does is use his words, we all know his words are as useful as trying to extinguish a fire with a toothpick.
You must be new here so I’m just going to warn you- the only opinion about Baine allowed around here is that he’s a total loser and unforgivable Alliance sympathizer who cares nothing for the Horde.
Trying to refute this brittle viewpoint with logic and facts is only going to get you in trouble!
If this was the actual narrative, Baine would be more interesting than them pretending he’s Horde.
I may be new here, but I’m intimately familiar with the BS antics of some members of the “loyalist” side of the argument who feign bipartisanism when their stance basically oozes from every sentence they write and who think it’s all the other Horde leaders fault for not blindly throwing their loyalties at the feet of a self-serving twit who has shown absolutely zero signs of loyalty or care to those who follow her.(aside from her own people, perhaps)
Just because Sylvanas was Warchief and is a fan favorite doesn’t excuse her from the same rules and standards that we apply to the other Horde leaders. Even a character as universally reviled by the general Horde community as Baine.
Like, I’m sorry, I know the story is hot garbage, but that’s not an excuse to hold characters to different standards. Sylvanas is either moreso or equally as guilty of killing loyal Horde soldiers as Baine is, but there is absolutely no universe in which her killing Horde soldiers is any more ok than Baine killing Horde soldiers, regardless of circumstance.
I never did the quest, but is there any indication that they even have any sense that these are two different things?
Do you mean Lordaeron, where the Warchief’s goal was blighting Alliance and the Horde soldiers were caught out of position and apologized to the player when rescued knowing it was their fault?
'cause that isn’t really comparable to Baine killing Horde soldiers to rescue an Alliance prisoner to benefit the enemy nation that just killed Rastakhan literally five minutes prior.
Lets see if I can help.
What Sylvannas did at Lordaeron was a military maneuver to delay Anduin’s armies and ultimately decimate them. Save for the unscheduled arrival of Jaina Proudmoore. It may have decided the war in the Horde’s favor THEN AND THERE.
As for Derek Proudmoore, Baine sabotaged a military scheme aimed at taking out one of the greatest threats to the Horde. His action is treason pure and simple.
Only accurate thing Saurfang ever said was that the Horde’s honor generally is a lie. So idk why Baine was all uptight about it.
The issue mostly lies in the fact the writers don’t acknowledge they’ve written their characters as hypocrites.
It’s why Saurfang acknowledging it during 8.2.5 was refreshing but literally everyone else just pretends that Saurfang’s factual statement isn’t true.
How can they be out of position when they didn’t even know she was going to do that, seems pretty stupid in hindsight to blame people for being out of position for a maneuver they didn’t even know was going to be pulled until it was too late.
Even so, perhaps that is the case to those who lived, but what about those who were killed and raised from the dead?
Well, they don’t get an account on the matter, do they?
How long do you honestly think that excuse will hold up before you realize how absolutely stupid it is?
“It’s ok to kill my own guys so long as it’s in spite of the enemy.”
It’s a dumb excuse, stop trying to defend an immoral and rash action taken by someone who had intentionally committed literal genocide before that. We all know she never gave a dam about the lives of her troops.
It sure as hell is because;
Derek was not an Alliance prisoner, we had just resseructed him after almost 20 years of being KIA during the 2nd war with the intent on brainwashing him and using him as a weapon against the Alliance and he sure wasn’t going back to helping the Alliance any time soon, especially in a condition such as his.
Derek was of no military benefit to the Alliance whatsoever since he is no longer an active combatant or commander or military value, y’know since he’s been dead and way out of the loop for a long time.
The hell do we care that Kul’tiras killed Rastakhan(aside from the players perspective). We barely knew him anyways, it’s not like he was some great, long-time ally of the Horde. We knew Ratskahan for, like, a week before he got killed and the Horde only wanted him for his navy anyways which was destroyed. It’s not like the Horde particularly cared too much for him aside from wanting the stuff he has. His death practically sealed the allegiance of the Zandalari anyways, thanks to his millennial daughter. If anything, Rastakhan dying was a boon for the Horde as it got the Zandalari to officially sign up.(once again, from a purely lore standpoint, I’m actually peeved about Rastakhan dying)
Ok, well guess what?
It failed.
So now in hindsight, it was a boneheaded move that hurt the Horde more than it did the Alliance.
You can blame coincidental Jaina for that reckless and self-harming ploy all you want, doesn’t make it any less reckless of a plan or harmful to the people who were putting their lives on the line to defend her city, only for her to make all their sacrifices in vain.(y’know, by blowing the whole thing up in plague)
You know what’s an even greater threat to the Horde?
Sylvanas Windrunner.
Y’know, the twit who dragged her entire faction into a buffoonish war that serves them virtually no purpose other than to throw themselves to their deaths so that she can increase her own power and that of her own people. It offered no benefits to the Orcs, the Elves, the Tauren, or the Trolls. It’s cute how she basically mocks Baine at the BfL and tells him to tend to the living, since she doesn’t give a flying flock about them to begin with.
Baine taking drastic and desperate measures to forge a diplomatic relationship with the enemy faction in order to end the war as quickly and effectively as possible is probably one of the most useful things he’s ever done.(which is saying alot for Baine)
Her precious “military scheme” much like both at Teldrassil and Lordaeron would’ve blown up right in face anyways, since she really sucks at understanding how the Alliance works. Killing their loved ones’ isn’t going to demoralize them, EVER. It’s going to piss them off and make them even more determined to stop you.
Pure and simple; Sylvanas is an arrogant halfwit who you apparently think is more strategically competent than she actually is.