Not at all. They were there before the well.
It’s also no secret Troll fans don’t like such retcons.
Perhaps, perhaps not. If they are evolved from elementals then no.
Again, it doesn’t. Accelerated. Nothing more.
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But it was retconned, so that’s the truth now. They weren’t there before the well.
Well there’s no question about it when the quote says ‘natural life would not have arisen’. Heck without the Titans, the world would still be ruled by the Old Gods.
I just quoted it. I know Trolls fans have this weird thing against it, but that’s the situation. Read the quote.
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Chronicles 1 says yes they were.
Elemental live did arise without them. Zandalari also look like they have a pretty strong elemental influence. Do they? No one knows.
After 17 years he calls it weird.
Not according to Chronicles.
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No it doesn’t. The ‘life that bloomed’ on Azeroth was after the well. The ‘life that bloomed’ was what the Titans seeding and helped with G’hanir.
Keeper Freya was charged by the titans to guide the seeding of Azeroth’s nature life. To aid in this task, she shaped a mystical realm that would become known as the Emerald Dream. She wanted it to be an unspoiled vision of nature, undisturbed by the forces of evil or external civilizations.
And by the description, elemental life is distinctly different from natural life in this context. Amusingly this all applies to all Elves as well, though.
It is weird to deny the current truth of the world, lol.
According to the Legion lore and Chronicle, yes. Read the quote.
Natural life never had a chance to emerge. It was only due to the Titans. Trolls only exist because of Titan creation.
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If it wasnt for the Titans and the Well of Eternity, natural life on Azeroth wouldnt exist at all. Before the titans arrived Azeroth was a barren lifeless wasteland scoured by the elements (and later old gods) . It was the creation of the well that sent energy across the Barren world that kickstarted the creation of life on Azeroth. If the Pantheon never visited Azeroth, and if they never created the well, not living mortal life, troll or otherwise would exist on the planet.
The titanforged werent just ‘put’ there. They were created out of Azeroth’s body itself. (The earth, stone and metal of the planet)
So just like trolls, without direct titan (or as yopu say, Alien) interference they wouldnt exist.
The main difference is trolls are something that were made as a by product of something else the titans made (the well) where as Titanforged were just directly made fully formed out of Azeroth herself.
Heck my weird fetus analogy still works. A baby is created from the mothers body, but it still needs an outside source (something foreign, something alien) a father to help kickstart it.
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Again, the well only accelerated the process.
So dragons are… not living creatures? Ok.
We don’t. Trolls are still among the first natural beings. Even with those changes.
Again, that’s not fully true. Elemantal live did evolve. Also this was only a problem because of the Titan spirit in the first place.
Accelerated growth. That’s it. What needed to go were the wars of the elemtal lords.
No the well was not needed.
Again, we will perhaps never know. If they were lemtal like dragons, then yes they still would exist.
No matter how anyone will try to force it, titan forged are alien creations, no matter what.
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It accelerated natural life seeded by the Titans. That life didn’t exist outside that.
They aren’t natural life according to the lore.
I’m not the one who decides how the writers use the word natural.
Well, you do. You’ve been continually just saying ‘that’s not the lore’ to direct quotes saying otherwise. Trolls only exist because the Titans seeded Azeroth with life that would otherwise not exist and then sped it up.
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The Life Binder is… not living? Ok…
Show me were it’s not. In Chronicles 1 it simply described as some life did evolve from elementals.
Actually the lore always said Trolls are one of the first natural races. That never changed. Even if you don’t like it for some reason.
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You’re missing the ‘natural’ part. I didn’t say she wasn’t living, lol.
The quote says ‘natural life would not have arisen without the titans’. We know the elementals existed before the Titans. Ergo we know in the lore that Elementals are not considered natural life.
And yet I’ve specifically provided quotes indicating Trolls only exist from seeding and Titan help.
I don’t care either way, I’m interested in the truth. The old lore was that Trolls were first and before the Well, I didn’t contest it when it was the truth. You on the other hand have denoted that Troll fans don’t like retcons, so you clearly have motivation to deny it out of disliking it.
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So… You are cherry picking because Chronicle is describing life evolving from elementals way before that. Seems like something silly to get hung up to me, but ok. Call beings like dragons not “natural” (even though this was never clarified) if you want to.
Again: New lore doesn’t say Trolls aren’t one of the first natural races. That’s something you make out of it. It still fits with the rest.
Pretty much no one does.
It isn’t cherry picking, that’s what the statements say when read.
New lore does say Trolls would not have existed if the Titans didn’t defeat the Old Gods, seed the planet, and influence it all with magic. They only exist because of the Titans.
Yet here we are, talking about a retcon. And I don’t have motivation to deny it. You do. Some retcons are fine.
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Sure bud. They don’t but hey.
This was never contradicted. Everything else you write to it is simply not important to the question of their age.
I don’t. I hate all retcons. The best thing: Their age wasn’t even retconed. Silly if you think it goes only for Trolls. retcons are never really fine. Especially not if they are made after decades.
If it says ‘natural life would not have arisen’ and we know elemental life had, you can do the math. ‘But hey’, lol. What a retort.
So you agree Trolls only exist because the Titans defeated the Old Gods, seeded their ancestors, and influenced it all with magic. Cool.
You’re either agreeing with it or you aren’t.
If you hate all retcons, you still have motivation to deny it. Hate of all retcons. Troll specific or not.
It was when they used to exist before the Well and don’t know. Still only existing because of Titan seeding and influence, despite being one of the first to come from that.
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ya but the lore also states they are one of the first natural intelligent species to evolve due to the titans seeding azeroth with life.
Keep in mind when we say life we are talking about living flesh and blood mortal creatures. Elemental arent natural life…they are immortal elemental beings.
Proto-dragons for instance were elementals that, over time turned into living mortal beings of flesh and blood. But the only reason they transformed from elemental to living creature was again because of the titans.
When all the elementals were locked away in the elemental plains by the titans, a group of elemental dragons managed to avoid getting imprisoned, and thus were trapped on Azeroth, where the life energy from the well slowly turned them into living mortal creatures. The first proto-dragons.
Even if trolls came from elementals like you suggest, they only would have turned into fleshy creatures because of the titans. Without titans they’d still be elemental.
TIMELINE
- Azeroth was barren lifeless rock. With only elementals and the old gods
- Titans arrive, clean out the old gods, imprison the elementals.
- Titans create the well of eternity and proceed to seed the planet with life.
- All natural life, both plants and creatures of flesh and blood are created due to the titans
- The few elemental dragons that avoided imprisonment transform into living creatures due to the well.
TL;DR
Without the Pantheon there would be zero life on Azeroth including trolls. Period. This is hard fact and not up for debate.
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Man, I just want a real single player RPG in the Warcraft universe that’d allow the real lore nerds at Blizz to just get waist deep into the nitty gritty. Why doesn’t Blizz have an open world RPG game to compete with Bethesda.
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Again, this seems like a very silly thing to me and I said go ahead and claim dragon and such beings as “not natural” (not one source does it). How more natural can live be then simply evolve? Exactly.
I don’t argue about this at all.
That’s simply wrong. Even Chronicles 1 calls the Trolls “one of the first”. So… yeah.
That depends. There are (not immortal) races that evolved from elemtals with flesh and everything.
Perhaps. That’s really all we can say. Chronicles 1 describes elemtals evolving in to different lifeforms.
WC4 would do the trick for me.
I think it is silly too. Blizzard uses the word ‘natural’ incorrectly a lot.
For example, if a species only exists because another race seeded it and influenced it, I wouldn’t call it natural. But that’s what they call Trolls.
Well you kept insisting they ‘only sped them up’ before.
My comment was about their age changing. If they existed before the Well previously and now the lore says they only came about after the Well, that’s a change in their age while still being ‘one of the first’ natural sentient races to arise in that manner.
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That’s not what natural means even in our world. But that’s a whole other debate.
The elementals that evolved into living mortal fleshy lifeforms ONLY did so because they avoided being imprisoned by the titans in the elemental plains and remained trapped on Azeroth where thelife energy seeded by the titans made them into mortal lifeforms. So either way, they are indirectly titan-created.
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Artificial means made by people. Natural means occurring in nature outside the creation of people.
Existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
Existing in or formed by nature (opposed to artificial: a natural bridge.
As found in nature and not involving anything made or done by people.
So I don’t see why a race created and influenced by Titans would be any more natural than a cloned sheep.
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