What makes the Horde better than Sylvanas? (rant)

I’ve been thinking about this topic quite a lot lately, and again I’m not trying to start a war between Horde and Alliance players or trying to bash players for playing a certain faction, I just want to criticize yet another important part of BfA’s writing.

So, BfA started with the Horde being the villains once again, commiting irredeemably evil things, painfully killing thousands of civilians, raising the dead soldiers as undead slaves, burning and blighting forests etc…
Then we had Saurfang who felt regret for what was done which was a good start I’d say, but the problems started appearing when he was the first to blame everything on Sylvanas even though he was the one who suggested, planned and lead the war of thorns until the very end which was already an atrocity in itself. He made it seem like it was all Sylvanas alone until the very end. And every single war criminal did the same thing at the end to be forgiven for their crimes.

BfA ended with the Alliance leaders saying that the Horde has changed and this time they mean it, this time they can be trusted that something like this won’t happen again except that the exact same thing happened at the end of MoP and it didn’t work out there either as the Alliance had to pay the price for it in BfA. Well mostly the Night Elves.

The main problem is that the Horde hasn’t done anything to prove that they are better than Sylvanas. From how it is portrayed ingame and in the cinematics, the Horde was completely fine with genocide against innocents as long as it’s for their own good. From what I gathered, Horde soldiers and members were okay with everything Sylvanas did because they thought that she was doing it for the good of the Horde.
When they realized that this wasn’t the case by finding out that the Sylvanas doesn’t care about the Horde but only about herself, they were suddenly no longer on board with it, but the narrative still failed to paint the Horde better than Sylvanas, because Sylvanas does evil things for herself while the Horde wanted to do evil things for themselves instead, but both are obviously very morally wrong.

If not Horde soldiers, Horde leaders like Baine, Lor’themar or others should’ve acted way sooner by expressing their regret for the crimes the Horde commited, but there was absolutely nothing of that. The only thing Baine had a problem with was mind controlling Derek Proudmoore and using him as a weapon, but killing and torturing a whole civilization is apparently not as bad.
Really the only person that felt some regret about what was done was Saurfang, and they portrayed it in a way that he blames it all on Sylvanas instead of taking responsibility for his own actions and errors.

Then after Sylvanas abandoned the Horde, a bunch of Sylvanas loyalists were captured and in chains, but only those that didn’t change or pretended to change their minds about Sylvanas, because if a loyalist NPC changed his mind or pretended to do so, they were instantly forgiven by the others.
We don’t actually see a single named Horde NPC face any consequences for the crimes they commited under Sylvanas orders.

Then after the council was formed, we still don’t see anything that implies that the Horde actually has changed. The least they could do is apologize for what they did, return the lands they are still occupying and ensure that something like that will never happen again (I know that would be meaningless at this point but it would be much much better than nothing). Our great leader Anduin however says that this time it will definitely work, even though history has proven otherwise and the Horde has not shown any regret or remorse for what was done. They have only shown that they would’ve been on board with Sylvanas atrocities if they were for their own good instead of Sylvanas’, this however doesn’t imply that they have changed at all, it shows the opposite instead.

So far, no Horde leader has expressed or shown any regret for what was they commited, only Saurfang, and he’s dead now. So why do Alliance leaders say that the Horde has changed? Even Tyrande and Genn don’t blame the Horde anymore since they are only after Sylvanas. It just doesn’t make sense for me the way they have portrayed it at all.

I’m making this post because the writers themselves have said that they have concluded the faction war in BfA and that what happened in BfA stays in BfA and won’t be addressed in the future, except that this is just wrong and they did the complete opposite. The faction war was mostly concluded after MoP and in BfA they just reignited it instead of concluding it, yet they claim that it’s concluded.

The only way for them to actually conclude some things would’ve been the book at the end of BfA, but since that one doesn’t even feature or include the Night Elves, how can anything that was left unanswered BfA be concluded in this book when the whole expansion’s faction war revolved around Teldrassil, which was also never addressed again. Still they claimed that they pretty much concluded Teldrassil in relation to the Horde in 8.1 by the Night Elves killing 1 recreatable Val’kyr which we all know doesn’t make any sense either.

I wanted to end this post by saying that I don’t like how they portray the Horde in BfA, they portrayed them to be just as evil as Sylvanas, just with their own good in mind instead which is conflicting Sylvanas’ goals. I always thought that the Horde was supposed to be embodied by rather honorable characters like Vol’jin, Thrall, Baine (MoP) or Lor’themar (MoP) and I would’ve prefered if they carried on with that Horde, but that’s just my opinion. I personally would’ve liked if the Horde actually showed regret for what they did under Sylvanas’ leadership and apologized for it to the Alliance, tried to do some minor compensations such as returning land, rebuilding destroyed towns, handing over war criminals etc. but nothing of that sort happened. I liked the concept of an honorable Horde instead of a villain Horde and that’s why I used to play Horde in the past, but maybe I’m part of the minority with this? Let me know.

I tried to make this short but it turned out longer than I expected, I hope people get my point and don’t see this post as an attempt to infuriate or annoy others, I just wanted to express my complaints about that topic and what they made out of the Horde in BfA and how they have failed to conclude the faction war in every aspect even though they claimed that they did.

Edit: Wow this turned out as a mistake

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Please stop.

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You didn’t even read my post

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I’m sure it reads exactly like your four thousand other posts saying the same thing. Look - we all GET IT. What the Horde did to the Kaldorei in BFA was bad. Most people are pretty much in agreement on that. But the Horde playerbase had zero say in any of that, or any of the other cartoonishly evil things they did.

So what exactly is it that you hope to accomplish by spamming post after post to say the exact same thing? Are you just using the Story Forum as your own personal venting chamber, where you can scream into the void about your woes about the story? I got news for you! The Story Forum is a shared space, and the consistent threads that add no new takes and all basically just repeat the other get VERY old.

Your first post a long time ago may have had some credence, given that I absolutely agree with the plight of the Night Elves in BFA, but the way you’ve gone about is painting you as little more than a periodic irritance.

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If you read my post you would know that I’m not blaming players for that at all and I’m not asking for the Horde to be punished for it.

The post is mainly about the fact THAT the Horde is portrayed as stupid evil throughout the whole of BfA. That the writers didn’t even attempt to make the Horde look less bad or redeem them. They didn’t make the Horde look any better than Sylvanas at all, that’s what my complaint is about. I even said that I much prefer an honorable horde, the one from late Mists of Pandaria after Garrosh was defeated.

You just read the title of my post and instantly drew the “shut up” card. Maybe the title is a bit irritating but you could’ve atleast read it before judging.

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That’s not how it works. They accepted the gift and turned against their countrymen. Why? No idea. Not really well explained. Probably Maw related. That plot point might actually be answered in SL but we’ll have to wait and see.

There is nothing however to suggest Slyvanas suddenly got necromantic powers that dwarf the Lich King. Whatever she’s using (my guess is anima related magic) nobody could identify it - so it ain’t necromancy.

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fine

  1. Slyvanus was the one who wanted the war, not saurfang. She had to convince him.
  2. Saurfang offered a suggestion on how to attack the alliance, like a general should.
  3. Slyvanus was really the one who led the war. saurfang played a bit part
  4. Slyvanus broke the very reasoning she used for the war when she burned teldrassil when the objective was to cripple the alliance in one blow and force them to sue for peace, not kill people for funsies because her mustache was itching.

Why was slyvanus blamed? because it was her fault. She pushed for the war, she pushed for the war of thorns, and she alone pushed for the burning. She dragged the horde into it when nobody else wanted it (other than maybe the Shatterspear trolls). Now granted, nobody disagreed with her (at least publicly) but nobody other than her WANTED the war. If slyvanus was not warchief, there would have been no war. Nobody would have even entertained the THOUGHT of going to war.

I would also like to point how that the rebellion formed because of the actions Slyvanus took against a certain alliance character (derek). Saurfang DID take responsibility for his actions, its why he kept trying to die at the alliances hand but everyone kept stopping him.

The reason why you are having a hard time with this subject is because…your interpretation of the events of the War of Thorns is completely wrong. It was proven wrong with the very first suarfang cinematic where he was going to charge into the alliance lines alone with no armor to protect him. Why? to take responsibility for his part, by letting the alliance kill him.

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i think that the idea is that leaders like baine and thrall can be trusted.

considering that those also always wanted peace.

Thrall feels guilty for making garrosh warchief and who ended up attacking jaina/alliance.

But he does seems like he is trying to get redemption for it.
And baine did risked his neck by literally betraying both garrosh and sylvanas.

Lor’themar as well seems to be interested in peace.
alongside with almost all the others minus gerayah.

but if the horde has another bad leader they would probably go insane for no reason, again. or that is the concept.

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We’re better because the writers say we are. That’s it.

As for your ideas, they still come across as punishments to the Horde playerbase because the Horde was bad and is doing things to make up for said bad things. It’s just another reminder that we’re the baddies.

And honestly? Both factions don’t need any more L’s right now. Let this story die so we can attempt to pick up the pieces before the next villain bat.

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The Horde are like Children, they only feel bad when they are caught red handed.

Sylvanas never cared about the Horde, she has always been a selfish person putting her own interests first and foremost. Why and how anyone playing Horde thought she cared about them boggles the mind.

Saurfang’s dying “honourably” was a lame retread of Varian’s death in Legion. Not one person can deny Varian went out like a hero and Blizzard were trying to do the same with Saurfang but they failed miserably. Saurfang used to drone on about Honour but he has been involved in every single war the Horde has ever been apart of, including Blackhand’s original horde which, well, we know how well treated the Draenei and their own people were during those days, and Saurfang was apart of it all. What, he feels bad all of sudden because he was involved in killing thousands of innocent nelves and Worgen at Teldrasil but he was fine with slaughtering the Draenei and his own people back on Outland? what about all the humans he slaughtered when he and the rest of the Orcs came through the Dark Portal? he didn’t seem sad about that, but now he is redeemed because, what, he took Sylvanas on in Mak’gora and died? Saurfang did not deserve the funeral he got, he deserved a funeral befitting him, taken back to Outland and thrown onto the path of glory to rot.

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Someone missed lots of story

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IT’S SYLVANAS. SAY PHONETICALLY WHAT YOU’RE TYPING; SLY-VAN-US. DOES THAT SOUND ANYTHING LIKE WHAT ANYONE HAS EVER CALLED HER!?

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Did I? care to elaborate on which parts I missed during the sad Orc saga? because I do so enjoy hearing about orcs being sad for doing something stupid. It’s my favourite retreaded storyline every expansion.

Maybe I have bad memory but wasn’t Sylvanas plotting to not tell Baine about the attack?

edit: It’s part of the dialogue were Sylvanas talks about the value of the Tauren, I need help finding it.

/struts into this thread, bells upon my jester’s cap tinkling merrily in eager anticipation of another thread derailment

/I see the state of the present quarreling and find it most distasteful

/I perform a swift turnabout and jingle away

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When he tells anduin about how Sylvanas is the true leader of the horde then goes on to explain what he meant by explaining what the orcs did to the Draenei

Silvanus
Sinvanus
sllyynavus
syvanus

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The Horde he was apart of you mean? you mean that Horde? the Horde he helped Sylvanas kill innocent Nelves and Worgen at Teldrasil with? the same Horde that turned Outland into a floating wasteland? the same one which attacked Azeroth through the Dark Portal while used by the Legion? I keep losing track of how many Horde there are nowadays. There’s Blackhands, Thralls, Garrosh’s, Vol’jins, Sylvanas and now the super best friends council Horde starring Baine with Thrall in the supporting role! How fun!

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Well here’s the thing about Saurfang starting the war of thorns, Sylvanas basically coerced him into believing the alliance will attack sooner or later because of genn, and against his better judgement he believed and agreed with syl on that fact. Also lore wise I believe the Tauren and horde druids where kept out of the way because syl knew they’d be vehemently against it.

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