Did they change what utility was at some point, cause I keep seeing this and it absolutely boggles the mind with the fact that we have an aoe stun, incap, a knockback, a sleep (though that’s more technically), and even the ox statue if we chose to invest the points for it.
Like sure, we don’t have a DR or a BR but that isn’t the entirety of utility spells.
At this point we might as well just mark it as ‘Tournament Utility’ and really get to the bones of the argument.
EDIT: Also to the issue with RDruid it’s less a clunky playstyle and more RDruid has a better talent tree for healing. Where they get two talents that don’t directly contribute to normal healing (Ironbark and it’s choice node) Mistweaver has seven (Life Cocoon and it’s three additional talent nodes, Spirit of the Crane, Song of Chi-Ji, and the Lifecycles/Mana Tea node). Adding to that the many TFT talents and Mistweaver has a lot less standard power allocation throughout the tree.
I never said that even once, i said it wasnt worth the effort. Also, low quality bait right there.
You timed two of the easiest 16s, suddenly you think youre good.
Thats some ego you got there. You want to talk about trolling, youre doing it right now. I didnt ask, and dont need your help. I see that youre doing well on monk and thats great, but it doesnt mean i want to spend my time trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
You mean, you would be getting carried more than you already are.
Trolling aside; I’ll try to answer your original question.
What makes MW such a bad healer in the community’s eyes?
I think it’s only been “bad” at the very top end of keys and that was mostly a perception shared by the community prior to 10.0.5. When I say “bad” what I mean is “not Druid or Evoker” because the first few months of the season really was just those two specs being gods and every other healer being “bad”.
The reason those two specs were the Kings is because they brought, by far, the most raw throughput and everything in high keys was a throughput check. Slicing Winds in CoS, Lightning Storm in NO, Stonestep in TJS, etc and Fistweavers just didn’t bring the throughput that the Kings did and everything else was secondary. Damage, utility and fun doesn’t matter when a spec cant heal through a mechanic.
Since the nerfs to pretty much every healer check in keys and the buffs to underperforming specs last week and 10.0.5 I think it’s purely perception that is keeping MW in F and the reality is that any healer is viable in any key and the optimal choice is going to come down to group comp, utility and fun rather than having two healers just do way more healing than the rest and being optimal always.
It also hasn’t helped that pretty much every top tier MW early in the season only played FW builds which traded away overall and targeted throughput for more damage in a meta where throughput was all that mattered for some mechanics. It’s only recently that some of the top players have begun switching to a caster build for some weeks and some keys and even the diehard Fistweavers have started to lean more heavily on casted heals when needed.
Remember that Mistweaver is the least played healer in the game by a significant margin so it takes a little longer for optimal playstyles to emerge and gameplay to be iterated upon. We saw top Fistweavers trying to punch their way through Hyrjas storm and failing in the first few weeks of the season and now everyone knows to spam Vivify for higher throughput instead.
Most healers with good utility have better buffs, team wide speed boosts, Combat Rez, Lust, etc. The list goes on.
I really dunno why people are so defensive I said this. Im playing 2 healing classes. Are you? Its pretty easy to see the downsides of MW and why people think its a bad healer when you look or play other healer’s kits. I mean why would anyone take my MW alt over any other healer?
Each of those kicks heals when played correctly. and its 150%? of your damage done, x 9, its a heavy aoe healer. You start to struggle, Refreshing Jade wind altho the cooldown sucks.
Essence font + rising mists… Instant cast vivify on 4-5 targets with Renewing mists, all the heal over times… The class works it just isnt powerful enough and is struggling to match with its own competition. The struggles of a Mistweaver vs Fistweaver are holding both of them back
Alright I give up. Ill just leave you guys to this thread. “Played correctly” huh.
If you guys want to think Monk’s are perfectly fine and there is nothing with them then so be it. I’m not gonna keep offering an objective opinion as someone playing another healing class AND a MW to just get talked down to because your defensive over the class for some weird reason.
I think there are rather few who say it’s perfectly fine.
And it’s always good to hear different opinions. Talking them down is bad. Discussing them objectively is a good way to improve ideas.
I do het your points. I have tried the Preservation Evoker already and my thoughts were “damn it’s so strong”. I didn’t do any keys with him tjough, only M0 but with somewhat HC gear.
It’s not that good of a comparison for late game but at a similar gear standing with my monk… The Evoker felt just so strong with all those strong AoE Shields, the healing breath that is probably similarly strong compared to Sheilun’s now us leaving a strong HoT plus being able to copy that on several people.
And all the other strong possibilities (except I struggled with single-target-healing a bit)
Many changes have been made since then so it doesn’t possibly tell how it currently is, especially not on keys.
But I can imagine very well that the Gap became smaller. But it surely is still there.
Evoker has insanely strong CD’s, especially if you use all the possible combo’s like… lay on hands on the whole group/raid (if properly set up) over 6 seconds? Insane. And it didn’t stop there.
Monk is still fun to play but I think all specs (and mainly the class tree itself) need some love. Some specs more some less (in my opinion).
Nah, but it means your point is moot still. Especially if you think you need to attack people. I just finished doing a bunch more 16/17’s anyways for my 418 weapon. It’s not hard content rofl, which makes you not being able to break 1700 on MW even more sad in your case.
You can also see in those groups all the mistakes dps were making, and like I said we had people with no business in those runs and it was still easy nuff to cover their mistakes.
You clearly do if you cant even break 1700 rating on MW
Monks are not perfectly fine. They have major identity issues that are causing issues within the mistweaver Tree. They are not suffering from abilities to aoe heal, they are suffering from playstyle and #s
Like how does one even struggle at 1700 MW rofl. I just went from 1700 to 2089 in a day or two of pugging - mostly because I finally got bored of waiting for guildies and just cause I finally got the motivation to do something.
Struggling around 1700 xD haha, deff a skill issue here on your part my guy. After a quick look at your raiderio it looks like you are also struggling on your druid xD
You should have taken Pyro’s advice for help when you couldn’t make MW work instead of jumping to FotM ( and still playing that poorly ).
Edit: Oh dang you ARE that mistweaver that was trying to stack crit past DR then complained and couldn’t figure out why things were slow at 3% haste. Yeah Im going to take Pyro’s advice and just ignore you now till you learn MW enough to form an educated opinion.
I think the biggest “MW bad” thing I’ve had to deal with was the mana usage compared to other healers - my monk needs to stop and drink a heck of a lot more than my priest or shaman do.
I do miss the Well of Existence from BFA, it felt like it filled out my kit perfectly.
Why does this need to happen? There are SIX other healing specs that are all casters. Why does MW need to also include a caster-healing spec? Can’t there be one unique healing spec that is purely melee?
Isn’t that like saying that Blood DK should be split into two different tanks - one that is high health/armor like a traditional tank, and the other that is all about self-healing? There aren’t any other specs that are having this strange identity-crisis like the MW talent tree has. We’re deprived of about 1/3 interesting new talents because some outspoken cadre of casual players want to have monk healer be identical to the other healers.
Let’s just be different, but stick to that identity.
The reason the melee healer tag is on Mistweaver and Paladins is so they dont get tagged as Ranged healers putting Ranged mechanics in melee. Turning Mistweaver into a ranged character and giving Fistweaver its own Tree that is still melee would be in fairness to all other healers… There is no reason for a Mistweaver ot be in melee as a caster if its built correctly… currently since we have the melee tag you should be in melee tho rising sun kicking every 9seconds
It’s also unrealistic if you consider Blizzard’s priorities. Sure, it would be cool if they could balance yet another spec. This means another set of tier bonuses, another set of legendaries (if they ever decide that) … indefinitely.
We can’t have our cake and eat it too. The MW tree is absolutely being held back by this hybrid demand by the playerbase. You’re 100% correct in that, and many recognize it.
But I disagree that this is a productive way to fix the issue.
I made an attempt to make both fistweaving and mistweaving work in one spec only.
This is just a base idea that could be tuned in so many ways. But I believe that something like that could actually help. Or at least this idea might encourage someone to get a new great and innovative idea that really works.
I think this is great effort. However if I were in Blizzard’s shoes and I hypothetically threw around the idea of a fourth monk spec - I would 100% expect WWs to get real mad if it’s a second healing spec. The vast majority of the playerbase wants to play DPS, and they’d probably want to see a ranged DPS as the 4th spec. Seven healing specs is plenty of variety.
Thanks. But I tried to not overdue anything as I could have continued going deeper and deeper, presenting several alternative ways to make spells/talents work. Probably to almost all talents I could do that but it probably wouldn’t be read then as it was too long (I could add hidden texts Example 2, 3 etc. for people who want to read some fun or silly or even meaningful ideas).
I agree. I do believe that if WW were properly reworked, they wouldn’t complain as much when the MW tree got a “one and a half” spec. It wouldn’t technically be a second spec. But this is one of very few (I don’t know about other’s as I am not really informed about many different classes) specs that have such a polarized tree where such a change could really make sense.
WW do have another crisis. They don’t have such a polarized tree but instead lack of their unique abilities, having several extras from expansions being baked in.
I don’t see monk as a range at all. Well, the caster almost is - but it’s still a monk and contributes in melee. Probably people could convince me with great ideas but I don’t really see ways that would truly fit into the monks philosophy here.
CjL is one spell that makes sense, though.