Reoccuring progression of events trying to pug as a healer atm.
1: tank says “big first pull, lust it”
2: tank dies 3 seconds into the pull
3: tank(blood dk) blames healer
4: tanks friend calls healer out for doing less healing than a blood dk
5: group disbands
Repeat ad infinitum
100% Tank’s fault.
Hit the blood dk with your external on pull. Especially that first pull.
I’ve been getting nothing but blood dk’s when I am healing on my disc priest and since I’m pugging in the +8 range I tend to get a lot more green tanks. So, I just shield, renew, and pain suppression on that first pull.
This has been standard for years.
Could be a number of reasons, but solely blaming the tank for this shows your inexperience.
Obviously, everyone with a few spare braincells laying around knows that. Unfortunately these tanks do not seem to have any spares, nor do their friends.
My external? As a resto shaman? You mean the one that makes Blood Dks more likely to die by lowering their health?
Also, why should I have to give a 637il BDK ANYTHING in a +8?
It does not, if a 637il BDK dies to a pull that he decided on, in a +8, 3 seconds into the pull, that is 100% on him. That is 100% blame on the tank, there is no inexperience being shown by blaming it ENTIRELY on him.
A green tank should not be doing that pull, if they decide to do it and die then that is on them.
The fact you see this as black and white shows your inexperience. There’s a lot of nuance to these arguments and you are not painting a full picture.
If a BDK is 637 then they have a lot of keys done at +8 and up. Something happened in your group specifically to make him go splat.
Lmao, this mentality is proving my point exactly. Did you stop to wonder if the problem is you?
In what situation could a tank with ilvl 637 die in 3 seconds in a +8 key? Even I, as an inexperienced tank, can survive on my own for several seconds in a +10 with this Paladin (without needing to use bubble). I can also survive for more than 3 seconds without a healer with my Prot Warrior ilvl 618 in a +8.
For starters you have to come at this with a critical mind. People exaggerate and straight up lie all the time. So the “3 second” comment you have to take with a grain of salt unless there’s logs that prove it. If we take it as hyperbole we can assume the tank went in and went splat fairly quickly.
Yes, this is a +8 key and the tank is 637, but we don’t know what dungeon this is and what was pulled to determine if this was a standard pull or not. I can assume a few dungeons where even in a +8 could lead to splat wipes like GB if Mass Tremor went off while being Enraged by the Overseer with the tank busters and Dragon going off at the same time.
Again, obviously, all of this is hypothetical, but it’s just to show you a picture of what could be going on. The person who is claiming it is 100% the tanks fault gave us zero useful information.
To be clear: Could it have been the tanks fault? Absolutely, but there’s nothing that’s been shared to establish fault.
Honest question as I don’t play either bdk or disc. 13 Dawn, clear the first boss, blood dk tank goes down to the front of the church, pulls the 3 (maybe 4?) packs of mobs and falls over dead within 3 seconds, no exaggeration here. I’m genuinely curious - was that on him?
That’s a pretty standard, but nasty pull. There’s a few different variants of that pull like exactly which packs. Regardless of which packs are pulled there’s always going to be multiple Nightfall Shadowalkers which are a huge threat to tanks because they deal massive amounts of Shadow damage.
The tank needs to have defensives up when engaging the pull, but it can be a group fail if the Umbral Rushes aren’t being stopped at all. There is also the issue of using AoE stops and syncing all of them up which will destroy the tank no matter how many defensives they use. The group needs to use their utility to stop them, but also use single target stuns to desync.
If the pack with the Nightfall Tactician is pulled then you have a unit that uses an Enrage ability that increases damage by 100%. This is often overlooked and if soothe isn’t used will contribute to a tank death when it uses it’s damage ability.
With all of that said, if it was actually and literally 3 seconds into the pull then that’s on the tank.
Feel like if in any case, regardless of dungeon, a tank dies within 3 seconds then it is almost entirely a tank problem.
I don’t disagree that the post could be embellished, but from my experience BDKs have a much higher rate of instantly dying at the very start (3-5 seconds) of a pull. If they did not press anything before Runic Power is built up then BDKs have little recovery to their already yo-yo nature.
Could/should healers throw an external if they have it on BDKs at the start of pulls? For sure, but I would hardly say it’s the healers fault if a BDK goes in and flops.
As for CC, I doubt the mobs would be properly grouped up for DPS to stun mobs without messing up the grouping.
Without knowing the full story I wouldn’t be surprised if the BDK took a few back hits though. And in OPs case, Resto shaman probably isn’t the best healer to fix the problems a BDK would have anyway, I know when I sac a BDK on my pally (primarily Ret) the sac is used up within a couple seconds xD.
If it was in actuality 3 seconds then I agree with you, but I know the forums enough to not take their word at face value.
Well to be fair it’s Blizzard’s fault. Bad design is never player’s fault. Sure there’s ways to work around these bad design ideas, such as using cooldown when you are full HP and not taking dmg, which is objectively counter intuitive and REQUIRES dying to that pull first in order to learn that the bad design made the pull do more dmg than it would in a well made game.
Just like the more carefully crafter older versions of this game, defensive cooldowns are supposed to be used when the player notices an increase in damage taken, which requires a minimum amount of time to properly assess and not just know there’s big dmg because in a previous run at a different time in existence that pull did a lot of dmg. We never needed to use cooldown while not taking dmg before, there is no valid reason to make this a thing now in any level of key ever without exception.
This concept of knowing what to do now because of a previous mistake is considered “skill” by players now but it’s in fact nothing even close to that, it’s like saying Dark Souls is hard when in fact you’re just memorizing a button pattern to dance around information previously absorbed and tranformed into muscle memory. Pressing a button at an uncommunicated time to prevent a consequence to happen before a non-mistake moment is not skill, that’s like taking the same exam 5 times and believing you’re becoming smarter.
Defensive cooldowns have always been best utilized in anticipation of large incoming damage, not as a reaction. You’re expressing a fundamental misunderstanding of how and why the abilities work.
Okay, so a tank should be able to pull everything in a dungeon with no damage cd up?
If a tank can’t figure out that pulling 4-5 packs at the start of the dungeon is going to hurt bad enough to require a cd then they shouldn’t be pulling so aggressively.
M+ is content that gets progressed through. If someone starts tanking a 10 and pulling without any knowledge of how it works, that’s a mistake. If someone works their way up and doesn’t notice how much that pull starts to hurt before it becomes fatal, that is also a mistake.
And why do you think someone wouldn’t be learning from taking a test 5 times? The biggest learning happens from failing, reflecting, and fixing.
Hard agree. If you are using defensive post-damage as a reactive measure then you already messed up.
Objectively incorrect, many older versions of the game, with the original design, don’t even give tanks defensive cooldowns. Warriors had the original shield wall, 30 minutes cooldown, can’t use on every pull, Druids only had frenzied regen, unusable without farming rage first so impossible to pop on pull, paladins nothing outside of bubble which kills your entire group.
The beginning of M+ itself and every season following does not require the use of defensive cooldown without taking dmg either. This behavior is a result of bad design forcing the “difficulty” of running a dungeon in time to rely on something other than speed running like it should, it’s putting the stress on surviving by making the keys scale both health and dmg of monsters equally while our character’s survivability does not scale as much as our dmg with every ilvl. This is a disconnect in the progressions part of game design, monster dmg should scale proportionally to our survivability, it currently does not. The primary cause for not timing a key should be lack of dps even when not dying. The focus of M+ is mistargetted.
No, realistically when making such a pull the mobs will not all attack you at the same time. The first things you aggro will start hitting you and as you take damage and you add more mob you can have a sense of the dmg intake going up as more mobs are coming and you can judge when to use a defensive. I’m not suggesting defensives should not be used, I’m saying the current dmg profile of pulling what’s right in front of you and getting demolished in 3 seconds is not healthy, not fun, not what the game was based on before and the fact that this is changing in S2 is proof of blizzard agreeing. They are also changing the scaling to put less into mob dmg than there is to health, for the reason I mentioned above.
That’s not what we’re talking about, it’s fine and normal to use CDs for big pull. The problem right now is some specs, DK more specifically and in this instance of OPs story, are often required to pop CD before the first hit lands because the first hit will do 80% of their HP instead of the 10% it would do in a well made game. From 1 mob, not 80% from 5 packs hitting at the same time, just 1 mob than chunk a DK for 80%, that’s called bad design.
That’s true but there are other issues in the current season, one being the tyran vs fortified issue, where in one week you can triple pull without issue and the next week only 1 of those pack nearly kills you because of the exponential multiplier way of adding fortified, which is why it got nerfed eventually. Same with the extra 20% at +12, also got nerfed during S1 and completely changed in S2 to remove the wall effect that catches people (mostly tanks) by surprise. The reason why it caught people by surprise is because timing an 11 was not a learning step to do a 12. This again highlights the disconnect in the progressions system. If defensive CDs is necessary for the triple pull in the beginning of Stonevault on a +12 at 630 ilvl, why is it not necessary for a +3 at 570 ilvl? There is a point in this progression where what you learn to do does not work anymore because the scaling is mathematically incorrect, where you are forced to forget what you learn and start playing differently, this kind of change is not necessary or at least not as punitive for the DPS aspect of the game. And I don’t mean DPS players, they have to learn the same defnsive usage pattern through taking no dmg at +3 and getting one shot at +10 if they don’t use anything, there’s a point in the middle where they will think they’re fine when they’re not, or just get targetting by everything randomly leaving them with no counter play because, again, the dmg scaling is not proportional.
I didn’t say they wouldn’t learn, I said they would believe they’re becoming smarter. Did you have these group math quizzes when you were young where the teacher would go “5x5=?” and students would answer as fast as possible, first one to answer gets a point. It’s just memorizing the simple multiplication table, no one is learning to do math correctly with this but it’s disguised as such. It’s the same with learning to use a defensive when teh game gives no cue of dmg intake because you memorized that big dmg will come because of previous experience, We just take it for granted but none of the game needs to work that way, it never worked like this before high keys existed and there is no reason to think that dmg intake should be one thing that disproportionately increases with key lvls while HP and mechanics don’t scale that much.
You are stuck in the distant past. This has been the objectively correct way to use defensive since at least SL. If you didn’t then you were just unaware or weren’t doing keys where it mattered.
? If difficulty increased at the same rate as player power through ilvl increase then there would be no point in increased difficulties since the relative difficulty would remain the same.
There’s a reason why player power growth is linear and key scaling is non linear.
Oh I know how it works now. Doesn’t mean it’s not an inferior way of designing the game in any way shape or form.
The main point was that dungeons became obsolete as player power increased, by allowing dungeons to scale as well and give reward they remain relevant longer and we have more content. The point of basing this entire system on a timer is to highlight the fun part that players had with trying to do dungeons as fast as possible, not about finding intricate ways of surviving random 1 shots. This is why I said :
Which leads to this statement:
It’s true that an infinitely scaling system when we don’t scale infinitely will reach a point where we mathematically cannot continue climbing, however this does not need to aim at one of the most depressing, annoying and boring ways to stop players: random deaths. This is why I said the main cause of untimed key should be lack of dps even when no one dies, enemy health should scale far more than their dmg insteas of being the exact same like it is in season 1.
In content that’s meant to be challenging how would you design it so defensives aren’t supposed to be used proactively to be the most efficient way of using it?
What’s the purpose of defensives? To mitigate damage. The damage is either going to be threatening or not and if it’s not threatening then there’s no point in using the defensive to begin with.
Using a defensive proactively is objectively the correct way to use it. Why would you soak the big hit unmitigated only to mitigate the small hits afterwards. That’s illogical.
This applies to raids as well.
This sounds weird, do you mean that it’s better to remove all countermeasures to dangerous scenarios in the game? Because that is removing skill layers, effectively designing the game to be easier? What’s bad about challenges and countermeasures existing?
One doesn’t have to exclude the other. You can just remove 5-10 minutes on all dungeon timers. Then you keep all dangerous elements, but DPS also has to perform better for you to time the keys.