No, it isn’t. While I can’t speak to the first 4 years of WoW, I’ve been playing for the past 16. Tanks had defensive cds for at least that long, and correct usage has for that entire span been proactive and not reactive.
Not only is it not healthy, it’s not true. Nobody is dying in 3 seconds from a single pull.
The OP’s story specifically mentions the tank declaring a big pull, as in multiple packs. It’s not at all about pulling a single pack.
Well there are pulls in the game right now that do this well for example the packs with the big fire golems in grim batol, you don’t need to pop defensives on pull, as the tank you could even get 2 of these packs if it was a strategically good thing to do (it’s not) and still just pop CDs when the properly communicated cast time tank buster happens. Most bosses in M+ are made correctly (tank-wise) where you don’t need to pop CDs on pull. There’s a problem that was already stated by tons of people about some packs having insane basic white swing dmg chunking tanks as if they were tank busters, there’s no communication, no visual cue, just you have to die to it to learn it and that’s just bad design because, on top of creating potentially impossible or very RNG situations to surive, realistically your cooldowns won’t last the entire pull and these big bad white swings don’t lose dmg as the pull goes on, surviving the moment of the pull doesn’t mean the mobs can’t all land at the same time later on when you’re out of CDs. Kiting because you have no CD is also bad design, tanks are supposed to stay in and be able to tank dmg without requiring CDs when nothign special is happening, it’s that simple it’s always been like that in the better versions of the game.
What makes dmg threating is not just the hits taken, it’s also the ability to recover from these hits and sustain consistent dmg over time. Defensives back in the day were not just used to survive what would otherwise kill you between heals, it was to slow down dmg intake so the heals can catch up, however slow that way. There is no reason to not have this type of gameplay today with overall slower dmg intake and slower recovery to let the tank and healers strategize, triage, and think instead of pre-casting stuff incase a nuke drops. This also goes for DPS, it used to be a thing to watch the tank HP or even the healer’s mana and use CC or other utilities to help them survive. The flow of dmg doesn’t need to be so dependant on “if you don’t get globaled you live” as it is now, and still be challenging in other ways. The challenge also doesn’t need to be in surviving. You’re presenting the issue of “if there’s not much dmg it’s not challenging”, okay I get that point. What about the current point of having very low dmg will still make you time keys? Why is it not a challange to do good dmg instead? That’s a way more fun challenge, way less frustrating when “failing”, also a more fun way of finding ways to improve compared to just using defensive CDs before a pull or at some pre-planned timing. That’s my point in saying the focus of M+ is mistargeted, they’re making it a survival game instead of a speed running game.
In the current model that’s how it works yeah, I know, I’m saying that’s not how the game should be designed. Also what are you talking about with bigger hits first and smaller hits after? Mobs don’t open with tank busters, their white swings don’t lose dmg over time, except maybe as a VDH becaise of frailty. Many pulls in the game also add increasing dmg as time goes on such as the big ogre dudes in grim batol, the lava benders turning crazy at 50% hp, and many other. The game doesn’t need to work around explosive dmg on pull, and if there are instances of that they should be designed in away that make it obvious with a buff on them or something visually telling, not just basic white swings doing 4mil per hit on a 10mil hp tank.
Raids don’t scale infinitely and incorrectly like M+, most if not all bosses even on mythic do literally less dmg per hit than basic trash in a +12 and defensive CDs are never needed for white swings like they are in M+. Raid fights are very clear on when to use defensive, much better design.
I’m saying the dangerous scenarios don’t have to be surprise nuke in the first second of a pull. DMG taken can be slower, so can recovery (even from healer) and the decision to use defensive CDs can be based on this flow instead of based on “last run I got one shot, from now on I will blindly use a CD while at full HP before pulling this pack” because that’s just boring, limiting, and uninspired.
It’s only easier if you assume I’m saying all dmg should be lower and nothing else should change in our capacities as players, I understand that. I’m saying the flow of dmg should allow time and decision making instead of NPC pre-loaded reaction. Learning, or being told to use a CD at full HP before a specific pull is not a lever of difficulty and it’s not a skillful challenge either. being mindful of the current dmg flow, healing received and healer’s mana is far more of a skill check than precasting defensive CDs to become virtually immortal.
I agree but ultimately right now it’s possible to time high keys with bad dmg, I also believe dying for DPS players specifically should be more about failing to do mechanics and less about being randomly targetted by 2-3 things at the same time. Unavoidable dmg should be way less, and avoidable dmg can be lethal, again in a model of slower paced health yoyo like I described above.
Precasting defensive cooldown was never a thing until high keys existed. Was never needed in any heroic dungeon ever, even in early M+ it was not necessary. Not sure why you quoted that line and replied something unrelated tho, I explained what I meant about the absence of defensive CDs.
There’s plenty of clips that proves me right, in the current season at high enough keys that are perfectly easy time time without people dying because we have more than enough dmg, tanks find themselves in situation where if the RNG doesn’t make them parry one of the first 3 hits they just fall over without precasted defensive CDs, plenty of mobs hit for easily over 4m per white swing on 639 blood DK with plenty of vers. I’m just saying the game doesn’t need to be like that, the challenge can be different, hell it can be even harder to time keys without forcing insane dmg intake.
Yes and I’m doubling down on this by stating the fact that even in some basic pull it’s necessary to pop CDs ahead of time.
It’s kinda why you have low keys though, there’s no one-shots there, even if things may hurt. You learn mobs abilities and establish patterns, and then you adjust your plays and cd usage according to these patterns.
You’ll never have to use anything blindly, given that you are able to learn things by repetition. If every time you run a key you are as clueless as the first time you ran it, you’re probably screwed though.
That is making things easier, and there is an exceedingly few amount of instant tank busters in the game (there are a few show casts though). How much reaction time needs to be given for each tank buster in your opinion?
Agreed, wouldn’t mind if they bring DPS checks to m+ so there’s a performance check for them too.
It’s currently 100% failing mechanics that leads to death, and not RNG. Letting 2-3 cast go off is failing a mechanic. Having 2-3 casts go off and not hit the same person is RNG saving you.
How much less? You currently don’t need defensive cd’s to survive unavoidable dmg in +12 keys. When should unavoidable damage start to pose a threat?
Let’s say we reduce all outgoing damage by 50%, do you also think we should reduce healing by 65~% to compensate for less damage and more reaction time?
For the past 16 years at least, this use of defensives would be an example of bad play.
One of the primary challenges for tanks is surviving. If you take that away we are just meat shield npcs traveling with the players who are actually playing the game.
The reason is that they don’t want M+ to be pulled boss to boss, with a giant aoe deathball following an invincible tank. They have consistently worked to make it harder to play that way with various strategies, up to and including making some packs too dangerous to combine without extraordinary skill and coordination.
In the current model, and every model back to at least 2008…
What key level are you talking about?
There are no surprise nukes in the first second of a pull.
How is not interrupting or stopping those casts not an example of failing to do mechanics?
Precasting a defensive cd on a large pull when your active mitigation isn’t available yet has been standard practice for years, and not just on high keys.
Provide a link to some of these examples of a tank dying to white damage from a single pull in less than 3 seconds. I tank exclusively and have never seen it.
It is often a good idea to start with a defensive if you’re pulling with no active mitigation up.
i’m sure he has an example ready to go of a situation where it actually made the most sense to drop to 50% health before you start thinking about defensives.
On the bright side, if I’m going to have a run fail, I would prefer it fail in the first 60 seconds than 20 minutes into the dungeon.
You are arguing two different things. Why are you talking about popping defensives on pull when we were previously talking about using defensive prior to big hits?
Obviously you don’t have to pop defensives pre-pull for every pull, just specific ones when you are doing a large gather that have tank buster.
Like what exactly. This is so vague and non descript. The only white damage that chunks are when vanguards in NW get 10 stacks of engage or the ogres in GB. Then again it’s not random or out of no where and avoidable with stops and soothe.
You mean in the modern era.
It doesn’t need to. The proper way to use defensives for any role is to use it before a big mechanic. Again you’re objectively wrong on the proper usage of defensives.
dying 3 seconds into a pull, especially on a BDK is likely because of not having defensives up while gathering. Also, during that pull they might get hit from behind and that’s not mitigatable.
BDK will almost always outheal a healer. That’s the design of the class. I’ve played enough BDK at up to +11s to know, as well as tanked on other classes and healed those 11s
but yeah, just blame the tank because most healers can’t heal twice in 3 seconds to cover that much HP loss.
tank dies? healer’s fault.
healer dies? tank’s fault.
dps dies? it’s their own damn fault.
If someone stunned all the mobs and synced up a packs attacks than a tank can go splat, If they didn’t notice the stun or were pulling a different pack. When a pack is stunned, a tank needs to kite a little bit to stagger the packs auto attacks “I back up and circle around the pack some to stagger the white hits.”
I have had ranged dps that attack the mobs when I’m in the middle of charging causing the mobs to move behind me leading to unmitigated damage and a tanks death. Sometimes a dps will blow there cds while I’m still gathering packs up for the pull. So it may have been the tanks fault or it could have been a clueless dps not understanding that you wait for the tank to gather up the packs before using their cds. Thats why they need to look at logs or a clip to know what happened before blaming someone, because it may have really been their own fault.
If you want specific help then post on your main.
Earth shield
Spirit link totem
Earth wall totem
Extra heal pre pull
Earthen wall totem
You can also be ready with through pull cooldowns and big heals and depending on the pull pre hot them.
The point is bdk is going to eat a ton of damage on pull and you have to be ready for it.
You won’t learn bigger pulls unless you try them.
Goobers are trying to gear up alts so they’re ratting your timewalking queues and whatever key they sneak into. Happens every new season, but its been especially cringe lately. They’re total NPC’s.
because he pulled aggro. I can see why it can be confusing.
WHAT’S WRONG WITH pug dps all the time?
We all got problems. Me waiting to join a group isn’t one of them 
The times I have seen a tank die this quick it usually seemed like the tank was trying a strat they saw online done by a much better group. Unfortunately, if we are talking pugging - there are factors apart from healing or tanking such as not interrupting, poor comp and/or not using defensives that may cause said strat to not be successful.
This was a cute meme in the classic days when everything was simple, but it hasn’t aged very well.