Ah right, that was Nightsong’s blanket statement. I see where you’re coming from about Irish paganism.
Dragonflight’s got you covered with Volcoross. And I recall a few dungeons with snake mobs.
While numerous beliefs and cultures have revered snakes and symbolism behind them, I wouldn’t say it’s a constant (looks at Apep, gorgons, naga and Nidhogg).
It also depends on context and standards.
While technically not a snake, the winged serpent Quetzalcoatl was a staple of the Aztec and Mayan religions, belief systems that required worshippers to practice blood, animal and human sacrifices to feed him (and their other gods). Considered good in their belief system, but outside…
The Rainbow Serpent is also seen as a destructive force of chaos when angry, and not all Indigenous Australian myths describe the entity as a snake.
Snakes also referenced or known as serpents, and sometimes even mythological beings with serpent features (aspects) is the constant I was alluding to with reference to my previous post which your reply hasn’t really changed what I said. In actual fact you actually reinforced my point about the concept of them being a constant that has been a part of belief systems and mythology over the ages.
In terms of the Quran the term snake is actually referenced more than once however, it is all related to the same thing. It is all part of the sections that discuss the Prophet Musa (Moses) and his staff which was highlighted as being something that granted him many miracles.
The section essentially is the passages like the one below and several others that are talking about the same events:
“And [he was told], ‘Throw down your staff.’ But when he saw it writhing as if it was a snake, he turned in flight and did not return. [ Allah said], ‘O Moses, approach and fear not. Indeed, you are of the secure.’” (Quran 28:31)
The staff turning into a snake was one of Prophet Musa’s miracles, one that has biblical references as well, where the staff was also used to produce water from a rock and in the parting of the Red Sea.
Interestly the connection between the snake and staves can’t be overlooked either as we see this connection as well in various different forms such as Rod of Asclepius or Caduceus from Greek Mythology. However, while it was presumed that the Caduceus is an aspect of Greek Mythology there was a similar form of imagery and concept design depicted much earlier between 3000 and 4000 BC as it can be found on some Mesopotamian cylinder seals. In addition The caduceus also appears as a symbol of the punch-marked coins of the Maurya Empire in India, in the third or second century BC. Numismatic research suggest that this symbol was the symbol of the Buddhist king Ashoka, his personal “Mudra”. This symbol was not used on the pre-Mauryan punch-marked coins, but only on coins of the Maurya period, together with the three arched-hill symbol, the “peacock on the hill”, the triskelis and the Taxila mark. It also appears carved in basalt rock in few temples of western ghats.
Once again showing that relationship and connection that I was alluding to with snakes or serpents within belief systems, societies and mythology throughout the ages.
Thanks…
Don’t get me started on the whole underlying basis and clearly subtle implemented design of various Abrahamic religions periods of significant religious relevance to ensure that they all actually overlapped with significant periods that had been a part of the majority of so called ‘pagan belief systems’ prior to Abrahamic religions even appearing. It does point to a much more purposeful and intentional design structure of the whole belief system to ensure it could be used as a subtle passive aggressive method to manipulate change without changing various societies key periods of importance they had been accustomed to.
This even extends in to the whole purposeful and intentional way that the aspect of the Snake or Serpent is represented within various Abrahamic religions to be linked with an identity that is in opposition or doesn’t agree with the structure of the belief system itself; when you understand the way in which the serpent was viewed by many pagan belief systems well before. It doesn’t take much to connect the dots and understand the clear and more than likely manipulative intentions as to the basis and reason why this was done by those various Abrahamic religions
So you see Eve eating the Forbidden Fruit a villainization of the Divine Feminine? Or are you speaking of the declaring worship of Astarte to be blasphemy to be the villainization as that is just a condemnation of villain worship.
If I may add on to this it seems the villainization didn’t go any further until Paul showed up during New Testament times.
The divine feminine has been villianized for a long time. You bring up a good example with Eve, and there’s Lilith, who’s only crime was she didn’t want to belong to Adam and bear his children. Also, how Roman historians like Herodotus recounted extreemely biased interpretation of priestesses of Ishtar practicing sacred prostitution as part of thier worship. The bible is loaded with examples of sexual and physical violence against women. Or how early midwifery was called witchcraft by the Church and women were burned at the stake.
You said they were constantly associated with five traits. Was Apep/Apophis associated with health, fertility, medicine, wisdom or rebirth? No. Was Nidhogg? Was Vritra (Hindu god/personification of drought)? No.
Those three can be considered examples of pagan religions. Even religions that don’t associate the snake with evil don’t always ascribe to them any of those five traits.
There’s also another snake from Egyptian mythology - Nehebkau. Views on Nehebkau varied, but even the benevolent version calls him a judge and guardian of the afterlife, none of the five traits you cited. Same with the other snake beings from Egyptian mythology Wadjet and Wosyet.
(PS. The staff turning into a snake is recounted in the Torah and Bible in addition to the Qu’ran).
Your comment is not the “gotcha!” moment some think.
Pagan religions and their societies had varying gender rights. Even the most open societies like the Celts still gave women less rights than men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Celtic_women
Others like Greek and Roman were strongly male-dominated despite their female deities (eg; Hera couldn’t ever stop her reckless, highly adulterous husband Zeus, and women had more rights in the Christianized Roman Empire than pre-Christianization).
The claim that pagan societies were more socially peaceful than Christianity is wrong at a fundamental level. They all had war deities that often dominated their pantheons and cultures and brutal practices including human sacrifice and/or ritual mutilation. https://www.worldhistory.org/Ancient_Celtic_Religion/ https://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-viking-age/religion-magic-death-and-rituals/human-sacrifices/
The absence of these in Christianity (and lack of war as a concept in the teachings) was such an oddity at the time, many Christians and non-Christians of the day had misunderstandings about it (something continuing even to this day).
A poor conspiracy theory unworthy of retaliation beyond saying it that needs citation.
Now let’s get back on topic instead of distorted tidbits about various religions?
Apep/Apohis wasn’t the only snake god in Ancient Egypt, he was just a concept of Hyle (Chaos/ Prima materia) you act like he’s the only Egyptian snake that is relevant.
The Uraeus was a very important part of Egyptian myth. She is Wadjet, the goddess of divinity, sovereignty, and royal authority. She granted Kings their power. She was also an emanation of the goddess, Isis, Hathor, Sekhmet and Tefnut, aka the Divine feminine, The Queen of Heaven. The Egyptians saw feminine Ma’at as truth, justice and they saw her male counterpart Ifset ‘to do evil’ as the Egyptian concept of Satan.
Nehebkau was the primodial snake in Egyptian mythology, at one point he was considered evil but then he became one of Ma’at’s judges in the Underworld, he gave humans Ka (the soul) and became the companion protector of the Sun God Ra (and later his son P’tah.)
It’s believed by scholars that Nehebkau was the serpent the Abrahamic faith would use as the serpent in the garden of Eden, and became the inspo for The Crooked Serpent. (Leviathan) in the Bible. He’s mentioned in some gnostic sects like Mandaeism (islamic gnosticism)
Christanity didn’t form in a vacuum. It was a byproduct of centuries of pagan myths combined into a monotheistic framework. Scholars have proved this over and over.
I joke all the time that Chrisitianity is more pagan than most pagan religions.
Joking aside though, the Christian monks/missionaries did that on purpose, it made converting the gentiles easier when they had something that they recognized from their old religon.
I love learning about the old ways though, it’s fascinating to me.
Even the 10 commandments are not something Catholics made up, they were a consolidation of the 42 Laws of Ma’at. When you start to unpack why the Bible only has 10 commandments instead of 42 Laws, you realize Christianity kept the laws if authority but not the Laws of kindness.
The 42 Laws of Ma’at given by the Goddess.
I have not committed sin.
I have not committed robbery with violence.
I have not stolen.
I have not slain men or women.
I have not stolen food.
I have not swindled offerings.
I have not stolen from God/Goddess.
I have not told lies.
I have not carried away food.
I have not cursed.
I have not closed my ears to truth.
I have not committed adultery.
I have not made anyone cry.
I have not felt sorrow without reason.
I have not assaulted anyone.
I am not deceitful.
I have not stolen anyone’s land.
I have not been an eavesdropper.
I have not falsely accused anyone.
I have not been angry without reason.
I have not seduced anyone’s wife/husband.
I have not polluted myself.
I have not terrorized anyone.
I have not disobeyed the Law.
I have not been exclusively angry.
I have not cursed God/Goddess.
I have not behaved with violence.
I have not caused disruption of peace.
I have not acted hastily or without thought.
I have not overstepped my boundaries of concern.
I have not exaggerated my words when speaking.
I have not worked evil.
I have not used evil thoughts, words or deeds.
I have not polluted the water.
I have not spoken angrily or arrogantly.
I have not cursed anyone in thought, word or deeds.
I have not placed myself on a pedestal.
I have not stolen what belongs to God/Goddess.
I have not stolen from or disrespected the deceased.
I have not taken food from a child.
I have not acted with insolence.
I have not destroyed property belonging to God/Goddess.
What I love about this is they are not “if you do any of this you will go to hell.” Your soul (Ka) is weighed against a feather of truth. You could have commited any sin but depending on the severity or intention, it’s seen with compassion. Unless you were a terrible person with ifset, your soul would be fed to the beast, Sobek
I cited the others. Pathetic to rewrite history (no mention of Judaism?), not worth the effort to retaliate.
lol no. 1) Citation needed 2) For example, Christianity doesn’t have the human sacrifices, drugs or idolatry for that.
Desperate attempt to attack Christianity with lies and things that would actually apply to Judaism instead (I almost wonder what you think of Judaism). (P.S the Egyptian beast who ate the wicked in the afterlife was Ammit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit, not Sobek). Irrelevant to the thread and unworthy of retaliation.
Not everything is a debate or an attack. Not rewriting history, I was simply sharing historical facts. Stop taking criticism of Christianity personally.
I get what you mean. On that note, got any ideas on how such a Light crystal was made? I don’t think there’s part of it sticking above ground, so how did it get covered?
Judging by the size of it, I’m assuming that either a piece broke off from a much larger object as it fell to Azeroth, or the rest of the object is imbedded within the earth and we simply can’t see it.
Now you’ve gotten back on topic and civil, are you saying the Hallowfall Light crystal is the piece of a larger object?
While it is possible, where would that much larger object be given the size of the Hallowfall crystal? It’s too big to be from a Naaru ship. I wonder if the larger piece has the same purpose as the one in Hallowfall.
First off, I never stopped being civil. I cracked a funny joke.
And the much larger object likely disintergrated as it azeroths atmosphere and the piece in Hallowfall is simply what survived due to how massive the orignal object must have been.
That raises a question. How could a Light crystal burn up on entering Azeroth’s atmosphere but the very fleshy Old Gods did not? They would’ve been cooked until they were Old God Tempura.
Headcannon territory, that entirely depends on when the Hallowfall crystal actually impacted Azeroth, if it was AFTER the defeat of the Old Gods, I would guess the titan defenses destroyed it, not knowing what was actually falling to Azeroth and they assumed it was another old god.
If it was before, it’s also possible that as it imbedded itself in Azeroths crust, the rest of it is simply unseen and it’s actually wholly intact shard of light from the birth of the cosmos.
It’s hard to tell without knowing exactly WHAT it is and WHEN it fell to Azeroth.
That headcanon sounds like a Titan orbital defense system. That is not a bad idea you came up with (watch this space in case a “Titan orbital defense system” suddenly appears in the lore).
Hallowfall raises a whole lot of questions (eg; how did Vry’kul reach the Light crystal?) I am wary, given the current track record of writing.
Thanks…