One of the things I like the most about Torghast is how there isn’t a timer, per se, so you aren’t in a rush. On the flip side, one of the things I despise about M+ is the timer since I feel speedrunning encourages all of the wrong things in the game and pushes the wrong type of behavior.
Now in Torghast, you get a set number of deaths, at which point the big Tarragrue spawns and hunts you down, so you have time to complete if you were at the end. What if M+ had a similar thing where the completion was based on how few deaths you have, rather than speed? So, for example, you get let’s say 10 deaths that could adjust based on the difficulty, higher difficulty = less deaths. If you reach 0 deaths left it’s the equivalent of the timer running out (i.e. no key upgrade). Fewer deaths = higher key, equivalent to beating the timer by specific amounts (this would functionally stay the same, +2 or +3 upgrade so for example no deaths would be +3 upgrade)
Personally, I think this would be much, much better. There would still be the element of challenge (at say a +15 you may only get 2 deaths allowed; above that, it might even be 1 death) but it puts the emphasis on mechanics and execution and not speed; I find the timer encourages sloppy play; skipping trash packs or trying to sneak past things and risking wipes if someone pulls because it shaves a few seconds off of the timer. Changing it to work off of deaths (or rather not dying) would keep it challenging and encourage good gameplay, not bad gameplay.
Thoughts?
27 Likes
Degenerate gameplay would ruin it. Once a group got down to 2 or 3 deaths it would be 10 minutes between groups so you could bloodlust each pull.
29 Likes
True but they could add some sort of restriction on that. Like they should have the ability to limit that to once per run (sort of like they limited potions in raids before, or battle rezzes). I think there would be ways around it that could still encourage good gameplay versus the (IMHO) already degenerate speedrunning gameplay.
Besides, do you really think people would wait 10 minutes between pulls? lol I mean these people are like sharks; if they don’t keep moving they die or something.
4 Likes
It would introduce as many problems as it would solve, as we are seeing with the varying experiences difference classes and specs have in torghast.
Ranged classes are just better at not dying than melee. This is already a pretty big issue this expansion already without being further penalized for simply being melee.
it would require entirely reworking encounters and trash everywhere or introducing torgast like power boosts in the real world/instanced content. not possible
2 Likes
Why do we need to have this or even a timer? Imo if you removed the timer and did not replace it with another mechanic then M+ would improve overall. I was never a fan of the timer creating a gogogo mentality. Let a group decides its pace and how hard they want to push. They could go slower and push the keys higher or go fast and be done with it. Difficulty should come from the dungeon itself and scaling not a timer.
25 Likes
Some people for sure would. Others for sure wouldn’t. And these two groups of people would land in the same group and it would lead to very toxic scenarios lol. Guy gets sick of waiting, ninja pulls and nukes the death counter just to get back at the people making him wait.
2 Likes
I agree but people seem to be dead set on the timer making it “challenging”. So I’m operating under the assumption there has to be something, just I utterly despise timers and what they do to games and feel they have no place in a RPG.
Believe me, my ideal solution would be to scrap it entirely. It doesn’t belong in the game IMHO. But that’s not realistic, sadly.
7 Likes
This is a common fallacy.
M+ timer system is already like this. In that, if your group is strong enough, you will make time. If it’s not, you won’t make time. There is no mechanic forcing you to do skips or crazy stuff to shave time. If going slow and steady is what you want to do, do it. Nothing stops you. You can still time +15s this way.
You can literally pretend the timer doesn’t exist and still push keys.
11 Likes
Honestly if a group decides to do that, let them. If it’s a pug that decides to do that and we aren’t that close to final boss I’ll just leave and move on, because if a pug is having that much trouble then it isn’t worth spending another hour on what will likely be a wipefest anyway.
5 Likes
I agree, which is why I find the Assassin wing so annoying.
For group content, I set time aside. I don’t want other people waiting on me, so I’m there to be there. But with solo content that’s not the case. I do it while doing other things. Every wing of Torghast except the Assassin wing this is fine, i can go get a drink or use the restroom. Heck, look up another show to watch on Netflix. But doing so in that wing is suicide, the assassin will spawn and try to kill you. If you’re in the restroom for a while, he can actually get you twice as it will force release you and you’re back at the start and targetable.
If he MUST remain (they stated in a blog they’d remove him but didn’t) then he needs severe changes. Remove him from floor 6 altogether, period. Every other floor needs a zone at the start where he cannot attack you. At least like 40 yards from the portal if you’re not going to program something visible. That way we can finish our current floor then AFK if needed.
4 Likes
I’ll double down on this sentiment. I’ve seen plenty of groups panic about the timer and make mistakes in their rush, when they wouldve easily timed the dungeon if they had just pulled at a regular pace and executed calmly.
3 Likes
instead of losing a few seconds for some random’s death youd lose a whole remaining life?
i can see potential toxicity rising from that situation 
you’d get absolutely teared appart if you had an unlucky death on last life 
2 Likes
That’s a big reason why I feel timers are (again IMHO) the most degenerate gameplay of all. The number of times I’ve seen people try to skip a wandering patrol that they could/should have easily skipped only to have someone accidentally pull and then rage like a 5 year old about 30 seconds being lost is astounding. It encourages all the wrong gameplay.
No worse than someone raging over a few seconds lost if someone gets lost/doesn’t know a skip/etc.
3 Likes
That would sure eliminate all those stupid death run strategies, the most unRPG thing of all time. Let’s all die so we can beat the dungeon.
4 Likes
I enjoy the timer; it creates a real sense of urgency and rewards high risk play, big pulls, and skill.
Deaths can be extremely punishing as is since they reduce your uptime.
3 Likes
Yeah I dislike this nonsense. Invisibility pots is one thing, but running all the way to the boss, dieing and rezzing up? It just feels so wrong. Death should be a punishment, not a strategy.
But hey, I hate pretty much everything about M+. The timer, the cheese strats, the way its loot invalidates raiding, the way that each major patch you’re farming up the exact same gear except at a higher ilvl, the toxic mentality it instills into pugs (hence why i only run them with friends), the way they influence dungeon design for MOAR TRASH, the fact that it’s obviously designed to be an esport…
Yeah I just do not like M+ at all. I like the CONCEPT of it, sure. I think keeping dungeons relevant is a noble goal. But the execution just disgusts me.
4 Likes
If its a +15 then they have a right to be mad, how would you get to that level of key and be unable to perform a simple skip? Anything below and its a bit less understandable. Below a 10 it would be ridiculous to expect that of people.
I figure the timer’s there for the same reason raid bosses have an enrage timer: to prevent people from just stacking healers and whittling the boss down over twenty minutes.
1 Like
Yeah, this is really it but I feel the game’s gone too far to just remove it now. There were way better ways to keep dungeons relevant than putting Diablo 3 style speedrunning as endgame content.
IMHO though skipping in general is degenerate behavior. Especially when it involves trying to jump/skirt past a patrol that could just as easily be killed and minimize hassle. Ignoring a pack out of the way is one thing, but trying to sneak past a group is encouraging terrible behavior.
1 Like
I figured the affixes were there to stop that, not the timer. Certain affixes like Necrotic would just destroy mass healer/tank comps. They can only kite for so long, after all.