KEK! Are you quoting your own forum post as some kind of evidence? You get eviscerated in the comments.
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It’s not issues unique to him to be fair. He’s just really open about them.
WoW’s always been inconsistent. Danuser doesn’t try to explain the reasons behind it though and why the team made the decision they did, or even really own up to it. Metzen himself did in TBC- and mind you, TBC is not loved for it’s writing. The most praise it gets is the OG belf characterization in terms of writing. Danuser tries harder to spin it to you as ‘this was always the case’ but in very sloppy ways. A casual player wouldn’t care, but there’s nothing about most of his changes that are actually NEEDED to continue the story. In fact, Danuser-era retcons usually lead to less interesting narratives. They’re certainly more overt, because Blizzard realized there is a strong audience interested in seeing the story actively after FFXIV blew up. But the narrative weight is worse and contradictory to the identity of what he’s writing.
As a massive NE fan, I think their lore can show the issues in blizzard’s writing over different periods. Danuser, admittedly, has to fill a position already unfavorable because xpacs prior to his own were blitzing or axing great parts of Warcraft that made it really interesting. However, some issues were 100% within the realm of possibility to be pivoted away from. Teldrassil had a lot of writing issues since 2004, a lot of long-term NE fans admit to that. It didn’t align with a lot of their OG fantasy, and devs on streams for classic kinda indicate the zone was made because it sounded cool, not necessarily cause it made a ton of sense with the established lore of NEs from wc3. HOWEVER, they still tried to explain it with Fandral’s heretical actions and clinging to the past, and the flaws of that.
Danuser doesn’t understand things like Teldrassil to that level, or doesn’t desire to act on the knowledge. It is far easier to say ‘new tree pretty and good’ than to have a more nuanced story incorporating a lot of the eastern themes NE lore has incorporated into their culture and beliefs post-Sundering, that highlight the flawed and self-destructive mindset at play. They’re clinging to the past and becoming reliant on things they don’t need, while people like Malfurion believe they’d be better off without it and should just adapt to the new age and restore their living homelands, rather than abandon it for no real reason in a pursuit of the benefits they sacrificed for the greater good of the world. In addition, the NEs are not actually supposed to be too overtly reliant on ‘powers that be’ themselves. This can be understood off their original lore, because Elune’s faith and their kinship with spirits diminished in the days leading up to the Kaldorei Empire, but neither Nature Spirits nor Elune actually forced them to change paths even when their new direction brought them against their own beliefs. They are not coddled by their gods and spirits, they are allowed to fail by their own ignorance or folly, those spirits and gods will just be there to pick them up when they come to realize whats going on. They did not have the Aspects create Nordrassil, and they did not get immortality for free, it was a means to protect the source of power the tree sat on, and penance with benefits for their culture’s mistakes.
Even disregarding retcons of the actual, literal events of the lore (which are still an issue), Danuser era lore doesn’t understand the themes of the lore it’s touching on, and that is an even worse kind of retcon when it’s fundamentally erasing a lot of the cultural influence in the very writing of Nature in Warcraft. Danuser is more interested in a rose tinted version of ‘renewal’ even if it means erasing the entire tangible, spiritual connection between the Night Elves and Kalimdor.
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Warcraft Chronicles is all I have to say. Chronicles wasn’t perfect, but it attempted to codify the lore.
And when Danuser said those books were subjective accounts of the Wow universe, that is all one needed to know about his writing style. Established canon was changed for future story direction.
It was incredibly disheartening and makes it hard to get invested in lore because at some point it can be altered for any reason.
Taken in isolation, Id say Danuser’s story direction is fine. The problem is how everything fits together. It almost feels like it would have been better if he was working on a new IP.
I really have trouble embracing the new canon because of how entities like The Titans, Elune, The Light, are portrayed. The attempts to make everything nuanced results in these figures being so uncharacteristic of what we have seen in Wow previously.
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- Wrong. Yrel and Sylvanas weren’t killed off, I criticized other things about them, and I didn’t mention Delaryn as I don’t have a problem with her tragic story.
- Obvious question; how did Yrel have Lightforged in her ranks?
- I’m talking about people in Norse Mythology; several non-villainous people and gods there call Odin out for his actions.
- That doesn’t make fan theories canon and you know it.
- Are you going to move the goalposts on your definition of immortal?
- Legion was mostly executed well, it had its flaws (including the sterilization of the dragons)
- Still doesn’t explain their actions.
- Then calling them good or bad is subjective.
- No, I stated my position and what it would be if what you said was true.
- He was the one who added the “dark power tricks Vol’jin to make Sylvanas Warchief” story, her attempt to enslave Eyir and “Sylvanas burns Teldrassil” was his idea, ham-fistedly adding villainy to her.
- Whether they’re heroes or villains is irrelevant. But I’ll throw you a bone and remind you of “a female main character that dies that you don’t have a problem with beyond obvious villains”; Delaryn Summermoon (now don’t try to deny Delaryn as a main female character, you considered Helya such).
I didn’t get eviscerated in the thread I posted, I eventually proved them wrong and they left with their tails between their legs.
Minor interjection, but the sterilization happened in Cata when the aspects gave up their power too permanently defeat deathwing. Legion just reminded everyone it’s still a thing
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“Only good women deserve saving.” Is a loaded sexist microagression, but if I point that out, I guess I am just an “edgelord Illidan apologist” 
Just another day in the WoW Story Forums.
Arguments over irrelevant plot points that aren’t even on the writers radar.
And drama baits!
Never change Story forums, its kind of sad though, back in the day there would be a dozen if not more people wasting their time here.
Now there is just like… five?
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That’s incredibly laughably bad interpretation right there. Because how would you react to “only good people deserve saving” ? Is that also loaded microagression?
2 people are talking about writing female characters, and you got upset that such rhetoric was used and you immediately jumped to virtue signal. You immediately assume the worst and try to imply poster had a nefarious mindset.
Thadeus is known here for having questionable opinions on women. This is part of a broader discourse he’s had here about abortion as well as other discourses about women. He has a lot of thoughts on good women vs “bad” women. This is just another example of his ongoing push to piggy back on the sexual harassment lawsuit at Blizzard to push his weird headcanon that “ackshully X’era was good” for trying to force Illidan into conversion therapy against his will, because Thadeus doesn’t understand consent.
It’s a bizarre argument where both Thadeus and Pallidern are wrong on so many levels, but especially about female characters and the discourse around female characters.
It’s not a “nerfarious mindset” as much as it’s deeply rooted misogyny.
Yeah of all the things that Thaddeus does that make me chuckle, it is when he posts his own post as some sort of proof.
As you say, he is quickly proven wrong about all his stuff in that thread he posted.
You mean everyone got tired of proving you wrong because they can’t spend their whole lives teaching you?
Boy, no wonder you have a warped sense of the lore, you even have a warped sense of reality.
I think Thadd is right about the influence of Afrasiabi, and how he was putting his own “rock star” Cosby Crew ethos into the game - with Odyn and his treatment of mortals and Helya. Or Sylvanas.
But when he brings up Xera, he loses me. She was actively trying to force herself on Illidan.
I think if one wanted to say Xera was an example of the writers being hateful to women, one would say she was written as an irritating, overbearing mother figure who refuses to accept “no” - written as detestable by someone with mommy issues.
But Thad actually defends all that, and only objects to Illidan resisting… which is a take…
On further consideration, the idea of Xera being written as detestable and domineering by some one in the Cosby Crew with mommy issues makes more sense, when one considers the Cosby Crew would steal actual “Mommy Milk” from the break room, and do lord knows what with it.
But Thad actually likes that part of Xera - he thinks Illidan should have accepted Xera’s advances, and that he was wrong to defend his bodily autonomy.
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But Helya was based on Nordic myth, hard to blame writers for using direct reference to existing mythology. As for Sylvanas, care to elaborate? She was always an extremely shady character since vanilla WoW, always scheming behind backs of other Horde leaders.
The only bad thing that happened imo was that they went over the top with her portrayal in BfA, and all the Jailor plot made her look even more stupid.
But in general, I have nothing against writing females as flawed, in many ways of ranges, or that something bad happens to them (and likewise same happens to male characters), we should look at stuff from perspective if it’s a good engaging story. Being creative requires for you to take some risks. And Arthas story is objectively fan-favourite story from Warcraft universe. Because Arthas was a complex character, his downfall was written terrifically and his rise to Lich King caused irreversible changes that affected many people.
In a way I was cool with Garrosh because I realised that he was meant to stir conflict inside of the Horde. I took that the entire Horde had to look within to determine what is the most important and therefore while had it’s issues overall I felt the story was engaging. And I thought that MoP was the definitive ending to that, and the writers would pull something with Alliance next to see what can be done there, but it didn’t happen.
Alliance doesn’t have any real challenges, it is stale and imo boring. They have so many sub-factions that should be at odds with one another yet nothing happens. Everyone is holding hands, and everyone is happy. There are no real risks taken. The same standard applies to writing singular characters.
I think people shouldn’t look at a female character expecting it to represent something, but to look at a character that happens to be female as a character and therefore if the story said character is involved in is interesting and well written.
Let’s take example with DF and centaurs, almost all the Khan are women, and the only Khan that is villanous is the male. And yet the only female centaurs that were remotely memorable was the Scout Tomul and that Sage which communicated with On’Hara.
Female Khans were forgettable, tame and always did “the right thing” . It was especially demoralizing as they were based on Mongolians and yet they didn’t display any real qualities that would make them live up to Real Life standards. They didn’t have that energy or presence that would demand respect. So there is another extreme where writers don’t want to take any risks when writing female characters.
Maybe it would be better if their relations would be more tense, and uniting them would take more time, rather than just drop anything that is bad on the only male Khan there is.
The Blizzard at the time, the Cosby Crew, can be blamed for elevating Odyn to someone we work with and grind rep for, instead of someone who we should oppose. That is what you overlook.
I know bad stuff has to happen regardless of Gender - Helya being punished for standing up to Odyn, because she did not want to subjugate the souls of the Vrykul - that is fine story to include. It elicits strong feelings.
But what the Cosby Crew decides is that she is the villain going forward and he is the heroic figure we side with. That is where their perverse influence comes into play.
Um, asked and answered.
The whole of it all is that the vile nature of the Cosby Crew and their Vicelord Afrasiabi perverted the lore and the company’s name in many ways, not just the “He Man Woman Hater” attitude. That is just part of the discussion.
I said it before, it seemed like Afrasiabi was actively ruining thing in the lore that other Devs liked, out of spite. To circle back to the topic, Danuser was basically forced to land a plane after the previous pilot set it on fire and aimed it at a mountain side.
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But it’s not the first time we work with people that are like that. Sylvanas since classic was like that, she ordered production of a plague and there was nothing we could do about it.
Like Wrathion, where you could tell he will be trouble but pushing you to work with him anyway.
Heck, when I play Horde I am constantly forced to work with Jaina without having any say in it.
I think in Legion it was more of a pragmatic aproach. We alligned with Odyn, because he would be valuable asset to defeat the Legion NOT becuase we think highly of him. In a way it is neuanced, it highlights that sometimes to achieve a certain goal we have to cooperate with people we despise deeply. It wasn’t likely the narrative, but I personally didn’t care for either of them. I might be in minority but the balant viking stuff showed to this game doesn’t work for me.
Oh I can totally believe that Afrasiaby is a spiteful man. For years I believed that out of spite he killed Vol’Jin because he couldn’t have his way with Garrosh. And Vol’Jin was killed in the most disrespectful way imaginable. The contriviances that had to be made to elevate Sylvanas on his spot was just jaw-dropping to me. But I wouldn’t make out of it a ‘sexist case’ but more like the devs have their pet characters and ego problems.
But what really transpired we will never know because we were never in the office, never talked with these people and can only assume and guess.
When I first started this game back in BC, Sylvanas was THE reason I played Alliance. I really hate getting quests in this game and I am like “wait, why would I even be doing this?”. What makes it even worse is Blizzard’s seeming to have little to know understanding of alignment or character agency to decide right from wrong.
I kind of chalk it up to a lot of devs and players wanting WoW to be Warhammer.
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Which, to be fair, Warcraft was originally suppose to be a Warhammer spin-off, but Games Workshop backed out of the deal; leaving Blizzard with a bunch of developed assets that they then repurposed into their own thing. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the old devs were Warhammer fans.
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After a back-and-forth between me and them, I successfully proved my point. Instead of claiming I lost when I didn’t because you can’t take me being right about that, give an actual argument against mine.
Funny you say that then concede my point about Xe’ra likely representing someone’s mommy issues.
I’m the one who pointed out that cinematic with Xe’ra and Illidan read like someone venting their mommy issues.
It’s pretty much an animated version of a high school student drawing a superpowered version of themself killing their schoolteacher (“Stop playing with your phone and do the math test!” “No, my destiny is my own!”). Or a kid imagining slaying their mother for making them do homework or go to Sunday School instead of play video games. That perverse breast milk stealing just makes it more likely.
I’m actually neutral on Illidan accepting Lightforging; I can go either way. I’m open to the idea, but open to him not being Lightforged. My problems with the cinematic are;
- the edgelord execution
- him killing Xe’ra
- The idea that she deserved to die for what she did (disproportionate - and using emotional arguments such as misappropriating loaded terms like “bodily autonomy” doesn’t change that)
- The rabid fanboying/fangirling for the above three (especially when it leads to people lying about and mocking me for daring to voice a dissenting view).
We first heard about it in Legion where they said it happened in Cata. So I’m not sure which of us is right here.
And I’m only pointing out the issues with a select few of WoW’s female characters. Other female WoW characters are handled just fine (Alexstraza for a heroic example, Azshara for a villainous example).
The heck? He’s only pointing out the illogic of only killing off male characters, and that female characters should be no more except from violence/being bad/the consequences of being bad than male characters. Not advocating that female characters should be deliberately targeted.
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Many female characters have been killed off in this franchise. There’s no disportionaly more males being killed off, if there is it’s because there are disproportionately more male characters in this frachise.
The call to kill Sylvanas specifically from BFA onwards is steeped in misogyny, both from inside the writing team and within the fandoms misogynistic manosphere. There’s no unproblematic way to want a female character dead, unless you want to unpack violence against women. This particular character has a history of gender based violence against her.
To me, the Illidan and Xe’ra scene felt somewhere between comical and frustrating.
It’s another of those cool moments - a character breaking free from a forced conversion that had a lot of unpleasant connotations, and even the “I am my scars” line is a pretty fun line - but it felt not quite in line with its setup nor paid off by its tepid follow-through.
The part that felt rather comical to me was how much the scene felt like a parallel of what Illidan himself had done to others - even the visual of the victim being levitated up reminded me of Illidan’s/Xera’s flashback quest in Black Rook Hold, where Illidan levitated and drained the other Highbourne mages as they questioned what was happening or begged him to stop, to no avail as he turned them into mana to better fight his enemies. And now Xe’ra was trying to turn him into a weapon to fight what she thought was their shared enemy, which either of them would do anything to destroy.
To me, the irony of the scene felt like Xe’ra had viewed Illidan’s history alongside us and drawn the wrong conclusion - that he was dedicated to fighting the Legion like she was, that he had “sacrificed everything” in that pursuit and therefore would work with her to do the same - rather than Illidan doing all this purely in service to Illidan.
I had no problem with Xe’ra getting lasered for trying to forcibly Lightforge someone. It was dramatic and cathartic - but Xe’ra had an Odyn-like role in that while she was sus as heck, she was important to the war effort that, if lost, meant total annihilation of everyone and everything we players ever knew. So I was very disappointed that only a single character objected for a few seconds, then Velen had the players sweep Xe’ra up like a broken beer bottle and drop her in the forge, and then the story dropped the subject and moved on.
I was looking forward to having Illidan have to fast-talk his way out of certain death at the hands of all of Xe’ra’s followers (who may of may not have liked her, but preferred working with her to surrendering reality to the Legion) - having to quickly and desperately come up with a plan of how to possibly keep up the fight with the Prime Naaru dead, preferably while over-selling his own capabilities and importance in doing so. That’s prime Illidan content right there, exactly the sort of self-serving bargaining that he’s done throughout his whole backstory, and a great opportunity for some fun dialogue. Or if not that angle, then have Illidan confront the realization that he was a Xe’ra to so many others, and only now that he was on the receiving end did he realize the horror of what he’d done. But instead the story was all “Oh no! Anyway…”
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