What do we think about Ret becoming a "support healer" in 11.0.5?

Because it was never finished in the first place. And the people who worked on the initial design are likely no longer around.

A bit of a tangent; but to my understanding the class team is constantly being shuffled around, for whatever reason. And supposedly the people responsible for class design are doing double duty and are working on something else at the same time. This, of course, leads to not enough time being spent on classes, or crippling bugs being left in for a long time.
When they finally get time to put the finishing touches on classes, the people who made it are no longer around and the new guys have different ideas in mind. And so classes are in a constant state of flux and feeling “half-baked”.

This is a good idea. Might actually see some play. Right now it is a completely dead talent. Which only “breaks even” with SoV if you take more than 200% of your health over the course of DP every minute. There is no scenario where that happens.

Would it still provide the 30% spender damage bonus? If so it sounds completely pants on head overpowered.

It was.

It wasn’t changed to ST vs AoE until a week or two before the Ret rework went live. Prior to that it was a playstyle choice.

TL;DR - Holystrike build was a traditional Ret Paladin, focusing on big melee crits with high self-sustain. Radiant build was a mid-range Paladin with very strong DoTs. Similar to how Enh functions with their Storm vs Elemental build.

The Holystrike talents only affected melee abilities (plus Judgment and HoW). Which excluded Final Verdict, so you’d actually use Justicar’s Vengeance, which at the time naturally did Holystrike damage and it was the only spender to do so. The healing it did was based on the damage it caused, rather than being percentage based.
Physical Prescence plus Blades of Light made Crusading Strikes do almost as much damage As Blade of Justice does today. Doing nearly 3 times (120%ap vs 48%ap) more much damage CSAA does today, while also generating holy power on every hit (rather than every other). It was kind of absurdly strong.

The Radiant talents provided a very substantial boost to DoT damage, about 56% (30% from Penitence and 20% from Searing Light). Expurgation was also a lot stronger back then (90%ap over 6 sec).
Execution Sentence was considered a DoT. Truth’s Wake was also a bit stronger if i recall correctly. A full radiant build did >50% of its damage through DoTs.

Here is a picture of what Ret's old Talent Tree used to look like

https://i.imgur.com/ykVD950.png

That said, i do not fault them for scrapping all this in favor of ST vs AoE, because the Radiant build was clearly not finished and there was no chance in the universe it was going to be done before the launch of the patch. You’d ignore every single button to just spam BoJ as fast and hard as you could. Ignoring even spenders, because there was no Radiant spender (Burning Crusade did not affect DS at the time).

So instead the playstyle of the Holystrike and Radiant builds were merged into one, the one we have today, and the talents would dictate your damage profile rather than playstyle.

Sorry, should have mentioned that Blizzard just updated the patch notes to partially revert the buff to Lightforged Blessing.

Link - https://www.wowhead.com/news/updated-2-war-within-patch-11-0-5-patch-notes-20th-anniversary-celebration-348455

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Hey i am trying to understand, is the lay of hands talent stronger in pvp content then the pve version?

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You would be correct.

It’s only 30% armor in PVE, but 50% in PVP.

Personally speaking, considering the cooldown + Forbearance I think the talent is still a bit iffy regardless of content, but at least it’s not dead in pvp at 50%.

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I find it kind of concerning that those changes are made at the 11th hour.

There’s been a trend of these kind of walk back lately.

Regardless of whether they were warranted or not, it kind of shows, once again, that this expac was woefully unprepared for launch and that they are scrambling for time to this day.

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I mean the fact that Dark Ranger, one of the most thematic hero talents available launched as a disaster requiring a full rework in the first major patch and Lightsmith existing in it’s current unfinished state, could have told anyone that lol.

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The launch iteration was so lame :rofl:
Poor hunters…

Totemic is still a trash hero spec with no flavor no eye candy funxtionally flawed. I stand totemic is the worst hero spec followed by lightsmith

I’d be fine with adding Rebuke range increase to Punishment. Currently Punishment is one of those talents clearly designed around Prot which annoy me to no end.

Well, consider Lightbearer from a Holy m+ PoV: the “from other sources” caveat makes a capstone talent utterly useless. I just don’t think the design is right, whatever the justification.

The primary target would get the ES debuff, and maybe the secondary targets could take 15% increased damage from finishers. But whatever balance requires.

Aside from having to take ES to maximize ST damage, I also dislike how we sit on it for a good chunk of m+. HoW and TV have the same issue (TV could enter the AoE rotation if certain talents were viable picks in m+). So, the rotation throughout the majority of a run devolves into BoJ and Divine Storm spam with an occasional Judgment, WoA, etc thrown in. Ret could very easily be made a little more complex.

Which brings me full circle to the class tree: I get frustrated when our class gets attention because the finished product is inevitably messy even though it wouldn’t be difficult to tie up loose ends. And then, as you said, devs probably get shuffled for the next go-around and the cycle begins anew.

That is interesting. They could have made Divine Storm for radiant builds work something like Divine Hammer does today. Mechanically I mean, but without the cooldown: holy power drains constantly to fuel the storm. Then other generators and mechanics would have needed to have entered the mix so that it wasn’t just BoJ spam, lol.

There are a lot of cool ideas going on in the Ret tree, but I doubt that potential will be fully realized. Same goes for the class tree redesign, such a mixed bag… Class design needs to be an ongoing process where it’s improved steadily over time, not occasional spurts followed by neglect. This latest redesign badly needed a second pass, but now the neglect phase is likely because other classes need attention too.

And so getting back to your original question, what do I think about Ret becoming a support healer in 11.0.5? I think it’s utter bullsh!t. Empyreal Ward was gutted and Lightforged Blessing is back to 2%. What makes us a support healer then, Holy Ritual? Judgment of Light? All of these extraordinarily minor effects put together? It’s all fluff. Lightbearer for Ret occasionally gives healers 10% more healing when we take unavoidable damage. It’s not useless, which is a pleasant surprise, but really it’s just another Prot talent that got lost and wandered into the class tree. That reminds me, I forgot to mention how terrible Eye for an Eye and Spellbreaker (PvP talent) are for Holy and Ret. Let’s just pretend I already whined about those in my last post.

Uh, to end this on a positive note, I’m excited to try out Light’s Countenance in PvP, the HoJ changes are good, Divine Toll is in a better spot, Steed of Liberty and Light’s Revocation are sort of good changes, Righteous Protection should be situationally useful (a good way to design a talent), and Selfless Healer is cool.

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It’s sad that they are already retracting their Lightforged Blessings buff for ret from 3% back to 2%… i was looking forward to that. :cry:

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I was too, but Lightforged Blessing was already useful at 2%. I’d be fine with it staying there if other healing talents were buffed to something like that level of power. But good chance that doesn’t happen and so we just get to be disappointed.

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ill believe it when i see it.

if we can get to 300k hps by pressing dps buttons ill be impressed, but there is no way blizzard has designed this.

im doing 14k hps passivley right now lol.

the key is passivley, because once you start to actively press heals there no way you arent losing dps

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The hunter wants your M+ spot. They should just give pallies lust and watch the rage ensue.

I don’t understand why they are so afraid of making Ret durable, especially in pvp. They prob still balance our defensives around Divine Shield, a 5m CD that get insta dispelled.

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And on the GCD… it’s so annoying.

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I’m not gonna pretend I’m a good player or anything, but Divine Shield being on the GCD feels really wrong.

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It’s so horrible coming from having an interrupt with some range in DF back to being 100% melee in WW. I want the ranged interrupt back so badly.

They almost made Turn Evil worth pushing, but made it a choice between instant cast and 5 targets, smooth.

DP is 20% outside of PVP, it should be 40% everywhere and not a choice node with SoV. SoV should be a passive you learn when entering Ret spec.

Range is inconsistent on so many things, melees being a big one, needs a massive overhaul in general. Divine “Storm” doesn’t even feel like a storm, the AOE feels incredibly tiny and even lower than melee range.

No one should, they aren’t doing real keys anyway, they can do maybe a 10 or 11, doubt it will go much higher, ever.

Divine storm has an 8 yard radius, melee range is 5 yards.

Since you have trouble reading.

Trouble reading? No. Correcting you. Yes.

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Lol right, cause you can correct how I feel, goodbye troll.