I think this is a good time to revisit this old age discussions because of the recent lore updates. For years certain posters claimed that the Alliance hated the Forsaken because of what happened to Garithos. We finally get an update about how the Alliance may view him.
Far from being empathetic, the Grand Marshal of what remained of Lordaeron’s forces treated the prince and his warriors with contempt and loathing, simply because they were quel’dorei. Finally, he sullied the name of the Alliance by forcing the blood elves to fight the Scourge on the most unforgiving front alone. His end was terrible, but better than he deserved. – Shaw
I believe there may be a little more sympathy toward the troops that followed Garithos, but their deaths may also be laid at the feet of Garithos. As Anduin goes on to blame the Alliance for their lack of understanding and acceptance of the Forsaken.
Per BtS, Anduin believes that the Alliance is at fault for their vicious relationship with the Forsaken. He talks about the Alliance turning them away, he talks about how the Alliance never tried to understand the Forsaken, prejudice and lack of acceptance is also talked about.
This is one of several viewpoints of Anduin:
But the Alliance turned away from them. All we had to offer them were names - deader, rotters.
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One is Shaw’s personal opinion and Anduin was like 8 or something during the Third War and grew up incredibly sheltered.
But yes, that is one of BtS’s flaws. It ignores Forsaken crimes even to the point that a twice-victim of the Forsaken’s crimes (Calia) is still sympathetic to them.
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Reminder that at The Gathering Anduin was shocked, and genuinely surprised, that Sylvanas would do a naughty thing even with advisors who were constantly telling him that Sylvanas does naughty things constantly.
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Varian was grown when he made Jaina cry for screwing up his chances of bringing the Blood Elves back into the Alliance. I can just imagine how he felt about Gary.
Yeah I think we all are aware that the quote is from Shaw.
There was certainly some head scratchers most of it was from the Forsaken side of the house but one that gets me is why hasn’t Anduin ever heard of the Argent Dawn or Crusade surely.
I don’t think him going against his advisors is a writers flaw per se, I think Christie explains it as a character flaw.
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Anduin was not shocked. Anduin knew bringing Calia was a risk and he understood why Sylvanas did what she did.
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Most of it has to do with how the Scourge decimated the towns in Frozen throne/WotLK, but then not all of the Forsaken have changed much, some of them followed Sylvanas religiously up till she discarded them at the end of BFA. It’s hard to shirk a first impression, especially if there’s a constant reminder of it (like the various Forsaken aggressions CATA-present SL).
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Even if you completely ignore the objective fact that the Forsaken rejected the Alliance rather than the other way around, when an army of undead shows up and kills your friends and family and burns down your village the question of whether they were ruled by the Lich King or by the Banshee Queen is academic at best, and this was the experience of your average Joe Lordaeron.
A lot of humans treat the Forsaken the same as they treat the Scourge because at the end of the day the Forsaken have historically behaved the same way as the Scourge.
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I have always viewed the hate as a matter of humanity not initially or even believing that there was a difference between the Scourge or Forsaken. Which I don’t them blame for since in the wake of Lordaeron’s and Quel’Thalas’ fall to the Scourge I too would be in disbelief and suspicious of claims of undead with their own minds like the Forsaken.
Not helping matters is that the Scarlet Crusade desired to reclaim Lordaeron and as fellow humans they were more inclined to be trusted to the point of having an ambassador in Stormwind. So Stormwind’s view of the Forsaken would have that element bias, which the Forsaken war of aggression to claim/keep Lordaeron reinforced and became earned with the blight and stuff.
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An argument could be made that the Forsaken being free willed made them even more deserving of scorn because it means they chose to behave like the Scourge rather than being forced to.
So even if the difference was recognized it would have made the Forsaken less sympathetic.
I should point out for posterity that in BtS we learn that most humans don’t hold the Forsaken themselves in contempt. Most people still see them as friends, family, countrymen, and allies and the focus of their resentment is the Horde for capitalizing on the Scourge invasion to seize territory and using their loved ones as tools.
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Did we really need another thread that just turns immediately into another faction slapfight?
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I don’t know, there seems to be some general agreement that the Alliance’s attitude towards the Forsaken would’ve largely been a kneejerk reaction based on appearance, inspiring fear as the Scourge did. It also cannot be denied that the Forsaken didn’t just look like the Scourge, but over time began acting more and more like them as well. By the time Varian attacked the Undercity during Wrath of the Lich King, the place was virtually indistinguishable from Naxxramas, save for the diversity of denizens.
I think another fair point for discussion is the Forsaken joining the Horde as well. Considering how much damage the Horde did to the human kingdoms, it’s no small surprise how hated they became.
I’d argue any attempts by Forsaken to prove they were the same people they were in life died the moment they joined the Horde. To most humans and most Alliance, it’d be inconceivable that anyone who’d fought the Horde would ever join it.
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There also is evidence based on the Forsaken’s conduct, and even evidence emerging from the new metaphysical things we’ve learned in Shadowlands, that they might really not be the same people they were in life. Even with free will, their souls have been manipulated by cosmic power to the extent that they are increasingly considered to be a new species altogether.
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I like how there’s just like one Forsaken sulking in the Bastion zone like: “I’d prefer to be in Maldraxxus… go to Bastion they said… it’ll be fun they said!”
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in my personal opinion?
in the beginning there was a lot of prejudgement and not so far real reasons to HATE the forsaken. This change over time after the forsaken started to kill innocent farmers, kill the living only because they were living, started wars against the humans.
In other words, their relationship developed of an relationship of untrust to an relationship of…hatred.
The forsaken did everything they could to …destroy any remaining bridge for a more peacefull future and archieved exactly what their seeded…hatred.
Genn and Roger are only the puplic Face of this hatred, but we know for an fact from BTS that MANY humans dont even WANT to see their undead forsaken related, they hope they die soon or want to kill them personaly for their deeds, so in other words…the forsaken are not innocent in this situation and anduins reaction is…understandable in the first line of event: The prejudgement…all of it thereafter was the forsaken doing what they did.
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What we know is the Forsaken representative never came back. There is a possibility that either Varimathras or Onyxia could have just killed them and by the time any true contact with the Forsaken were reach they had already joined the Horde/animosity would have been brewing over for years between say survivors of Lordearon(like the people in Hillbrad/Southshore) and the Forsaken. And said anomosity would be transmitted to distant Stormwind.
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lol at the idea that Varimathras would have allowed emissaries to make it to the Alliance. His entire job along with Balnazzar was to keep the Alliance out of Lordaeron as long as possible by manipulating the balance of power in the region.
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I think any hatred Alliance humans have for the Forsaken is due to the Forsaken’s own actions. Most people would’ve never heard about the Forsaken until stories started coming down from up north about free-willed undead attacking the few remaining Lordaeronian towns (Southshore and Hillsbrad Fields). Considering we all know how much the Forsaken delight in committing atrocities, you don’t even really need Scarlet propaganda at that point. Finding out they were members of the Horde would’ve been the final nail in the coffin.
The Forsaken just get more and more cartoonishly evil from there, so it’s no surprise to me that they’re not well liked. As for Anduin, whatever. I don’t care about his ridiculous opinion. He also blamed the Alliance for Arthas, and compared Genn to Sylvanas when Genn dared to suggest they push their advantage post-Battle of Dazar’alor. I have no time for the Golden Twink-God’s nonsense.
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Before the Third War, The Cult of the Damned recruited living citizens of Lordaeron to become shadow agents for the cult. These living humans would straight up murder people and pass military information to The Scourge. I think the trust level of humans leading into the rise of the Scourge was already high because they had actual people dying to get into the Scourge. There’s proof of this in the RPG books, you can read about a cult member named Jack who murdered three Lordaeron guards for information to bring back to the cult. People heard rumors about what was happening in Scholomance, too.
After I would imagine it was hard to differentiate between the Forsaken from the people who actively sought out membership to the Cult of the Damned, especially since the Forsaken still had high ranking members of the Cult of the Damned within their ranks within the Royal Apothecary Society, and they were still manufacturing KT’s original receipe of the undead plague, and were actively trying to perfect it through unethical experimentation.
A few of these members of the Cult of the Damned and the Royal Apothecary Society defected from the Forsaken to form The Crown Chemical Co, and became a faction neutral enemy, but Kel’thuzad’s own apprentice Helcular is still a very active member of the Forsaken.
The mistrust is 100% valid.
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