Age Old Sylvanas Discussions

Lore Story Forum
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I’ve discussed and speculated many things revolving around Sylvanas(as a Sylvanas fan)for over 15 years. I’m looking at some of my speculations and comments most of which aged gracefully, a few not so gracefully. At the moment I’m feeling really vindicated as we finally raided “WoW Hell”(as we called it before the Maw was created) to change some things around. I’ve championed this very moment since EoN. Due to the release of the new Sylvanas novel, I would like to further discuss or close the loop on many topics that were brought up throughout the years. I will not wall of text the last 15 years of speculations but I’m feeling like a kid in the candy store.

There’s a lot to cover due to the novel and 9.2.5 soooooo much to discuss now that its over.

I’ll cover them over time.

From what I gathered, Sylvanas sent emissaries to the Alliance that were killed. How they were killed is unknown. The novel highlights a conversation that Anduin has with various leaders of the Horde and Alliance, which Anduin address the following statement to Varian:

“The Forsaken were once members of the Alliance. Friends and kin to so many in Stormwind. And yet, you rejected them why they sought help simply to survive. That was a grievous wrong”

Varian nor anyone else for that matter, seems to interject as he has said this a few times now.

I don’t think we can close the loop on this one just yet, if ever. Who knows, maybe we’ll revisit this age old discussion with Turalyon at the helm of the Kingdom of Stormwind.

Sylvanas remembering a fool and dealing. I think we can close the loop on this one.

Sylvanas considered herself a fool because her time as RG, her time before meeting the Jailor was short sighted in the grand scheme of life and death in all the unfairness it brought. She wasn’t picking up were Arthas and the Scourge had left off, Arthas broke away from the Jailers purpose and did his own thing. Sylvanas became a true ally of the Jailor and was willing to work with anyone that followed him. She’s quite literally having a face to face conversation with Mal’ganis in her bedroom(there back and forth made me laugh out loud)

Did she reconcile? In a way she did, she acknowledges that she working with the person that inadvertently destroyed her Kingdom, changed her into a Banshee, and forced her to kill the people she was meant to protect. All for a greater cause.

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As I was reading and chatting in the Sylvanas Spoiler thread, I noticed that a few topics that have been well trodden by the community were specifically addressed, or simply fleshed out with details to make them a little less vague. I thought that was great.

As we have been approaching the end of many errant plot hooks, I have often said :

“I just want conclusive and impactful results. As many loose ends tied as possible, instead of more plot holes for the sake of mystery. Or possible plot hooks that are never brought up again. Win or lose - which ever team gets bragging rights - I just want definitive answers and conclusions.”

And this book seems to have delivered on many (though not all) of the topics the community has discussed. (I admit, I haven’t finished it myself. The beginning has been slow going. The early part feels like I must have accidentally grabbed one of my sister’s Sweet Valley High books… with all these little girls having issues with their sisters and parents and their baby brother… my god. I love the High Elves, and I never thought I would be tapping my foot waiting for them to be slaughtered… but good lord, can the Scourge come and make everyone interesting? I can’t take the schmaltz!!!)

That aside, I will mention a few Sylvanas Topics I am glad were addressed :

The Ambassadors - this is one of my favorite lore tidbits that has been mentioned. It isn’t a new reveal, so much as a needed clarification with further details. At least we know for sure Sylvanas did initially send the ambassadors in good faith - I was afraid they might double down on her villainy and have her order the ambassadors murdered on their way.

It is still sort of vague how they met their end. Maybe they never made it. Maybe they made it and were killed by the Alliance. But at least she didn’t have them killed.

I rate this a 7 on the “Old Sylvanas Discussion” scale I just invented (The OSD Scale, for short) - still vague, but more clear.

The Wrathgate - this one seems more definitive, and pretty impactful. For a long time, people were not sure how deep Sylvanas was in that scheme. How much did she know. Some of the Devs were hinting it could have been on her order - which seemed like the heavy handed retroactive villain batting BfA was famous for.

But in the novel, we find out that while she ordered the plague being developed, she didn’t order it used on Allied Troops. Collateral damage was OK… if they got in the way of destroying Arthas… but not outright targeting the Horde and Alliance.

I rate this a 9 on the OSD scale. Pretty huge. It even seems like the Devs themselves were torn on how much evil to dump on her lap. They were hinting they would blame her for the Wrathgate, seemingly because she still had fans, and people weren’t turning against her fast enough. It feels like a crisis averted.

Invasion of Gilneas - at least they enforced the notion that it was Garrosh’s War and Sylvanas was just trying to make it as painless for her and her forces as possible.

This one gets a 5 on the OSD scale. It doesn’t change anything. It simply clarified a bit of narrative muddiness.

Arthas the Creep - I am glad this is being reinforced. For too long, Arthas fans have been saying nonsense like:

“Arthas was doing bad things to everyone! He wasn’t meaner to Sylvanas for being a girl! If you see an SA allegory, that is all in your head and no where in the lore!”

I found that PoV on the verge of crazy. Even my first play through in High School, before WoW was released, before I knew about online lore discussion forums… I thought Blizzard was making a vague SA allegory with Arthas and Sylvanas. The way he says she " vexed " him, and the way he enjoyed toying with her, seemed clear to me even back then. Just the original play through, without the novel and community discussion spinning my judgement.

I give this a 9 on the OSD scale. Seeing that even Arthas fans now can say :

“Fine! He was always a bad creepy evil guy… even if it is a retcon!!! because he never was until this book made it the case!!!”

Even if the Arthas fans never saw the river until their feet got wet, at least they know the river is there, now.

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ikr, I was dying for at least a fight scene. I enjoyed Sylvanas taking up for brother and saving Alleria. I would have rather had much much more of that to include viscously defending her mom and pops as well. I’ve always suspected that she was a little cray cray when it came to them. Apparently an understatement, but I needed more cray cray in regards to loving/defending her family before dying. Especially if they’re trying to tell us that all Sylvanas post jailor decisions ie saving worlds on top of worlds of people all stemmed from the love of family.

The only scene sticking for me is her saving her sister, getting payback for her brother and watching her family frolic around.

Yup, you’re spot on. Anduin does repeat the fact that the Alliance rejected the Forsaken although its not specific.

Some things I noticed:

Sylvanas was raising the non Worgen humans in Gilneas. I thought it was a lost cause.

Soulcage and the deal with Helya finally explained. Speaking of that did you notice the reason she let Genn walk away after he destroyed it?

I think the notion that Sylvanas was evil while alive is also put to rest.

Her level of care for the Forsaken pre and post Arthas/Zovaal. I’ve always said that she was never the mother goose type. Her #1 priority was killing Arthas, everything else be damned.

Did you notice the reason she brought the BE into the Horde was because feelings she couldn’t explain? I know for many years posters assumed she had a soft spot for them, it was more like a void spot that she couldn’t explain.

There are many many more tidbits but I’m gonna end with this one for now.

Have you gotten to the retcon as to why she decided to torch Teldrassil?

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I may be in the minority but I hated alive Sylvanas’s characterization in this novel.

Undead Sylvanas was meh.

I’m still processing my feelings about all of it.

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The alive sylvanas came off a bit childish, even as she got older. Her undead self is just….well, all over the place still. I don’t hate either version, but I was expecting more depth than what we got. :wolf:

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Yeah, the maturity wasn’t there for me. It was okay in early chapters but by the time she became Ranger General she was an adult woman not a girl. It never came off like she was an adult.

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Golden proved yet again, that she’s out of her league when it comes to writing characters that are not hers or ones she doesn’t heavily favor.

I don’t hate her, but she’s not a good story teller at all. The only good story she wrote was the arthas novel, but that was easy because the entire plot just needed to be put in book format. She didn’t have to add anything new. :wolf:

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she …admire and loves sylvanas…thats the reason this novel is so bad…if you notice, they lesser she care about the novel-focused char, the more we like it (lord of the clans, rise of the horde…she didn´t really care about the orcs then, but they were her best works so far in wow canon

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I think that you’d spin the novel into a way to feel vindicated no matter its contents.

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And you’d take any opportunity Ainhin to take a jab at a Sylvanas fan. Why are you commenting in this thread? Just to troll?

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I could point out that it’s really funny that Deathisfinal pivots repeatedly on whether or not they like Anduin based on if Anduin is saying things that will reaffirm their forum positions or not

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Calia said that the Forsaken are the true heirs of Lordaeron, nothing you or I can do will change that. The lore is the lore.

I actually don’t like or dislike Anduin, he’s boring. The best thing that’s happened to him is Sylvanas. His blandness don’t change the fact that he’s a part of the lore. There’s no amount of like or dislike or boringness that will change the fact that he says the Alliance rejected the Forsaken and it was a grievous wrong.

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Not the first Mad Menethil with an obsession with undeath unfortunately

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I think the alive Sylvanas was written very well, she’s a rich upper-class coddled child, that had her mistakes excused by others and telling her it would be fine, like by her father, etc.
This made her never really mature in some areas of her personality as you all noted, and I think it’s very believable, at least for me since I’ve had the privilege/been unfortunate to work with and for quite a fair bit of coddled upper-classmen.

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You have this impeccable talent to call other posters out for something you have made up in your head and then immediately show us that you’re’ actually projecting.

If you’re gonna call me out for something at least be in my ball park instead of yours.

By the way how are you holding up over there old friend : )

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I already did, you just ignored it.

Namely, you hated Anduin and thought he had no right to comment on Lordaeron affairs when he said it was rightfully the Alliance’s in the BfA intro but now you’re holding his word up as gospel because he’s saying something you like.

It’s endemic in your approach to the lore, which is you start with your conclusion and then try to apply evidence to retroactively fit it. It’s why you’re so easy to please even when the devs feed you garbage.

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Oh, but when you’ve been feed scraps for 20+ years, garbage feels like an all-you-can-eat buffet.

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Wrong, that is only in your head my friend. I think you’re projecting. I think you once liked Anduin but is now hating him because he’s not the King you want him to be. He’s quite too boring and bland for me to hate him.

If that is the case I would recommend you stop projecting and start focusing on the parts of the lore that you love. Its what I primarily do.

I can understand why you’re a bit upset but you have some great things to look forward to. I mean Turaylon is now the head of the Alliance! Lordearonian nobility at the helm of the Alliance quite literally sitting in Stormwind’s throne room. I thought you would be ecstatic about that; leaving little to no room/time to project these falsehoods on me.

Let me just reiterate my opinion about Anduin so its clear to you. He is not the rightful heir to the Kingdom of Lordaeron; that would be Caila. Caila doesn’t want to rule it, she said the rightful heirs are the Forsaken. Anduin’s knowledge of the Alliance rejecting the Forsaken is his knowledge and in his opinion it was a grievous act. Nothing you nor I can do to change that; the lore is the lore.

What you site here is nothing more than speculations I have had for the last 15 years, and many of them being revealed as correct or really close. That is not to say that all of my speculations have been correct.

I can easily jump aboard the critically sad/disappointed boat and talk about all the things I hate, all the things I think that are garbage. I’m not easily swayed when it comes to my enjoyment in things and what I choose to talk about. Not saying I won’t ever criticize the story, I have within the last few days, but I tend to focus on the parts of the story I enjoy.

You should try doing the same my old friend and I genuinely mean that.

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To be fair, when you play Warcraft 3’s UD campaign she comes off a bit childish when fighting Arthas. Mostly just snarky and smug until Arthas kills her, which is the impression I get from the living sections of the book. As for her undead self, Golden has always written Undead Sylvanas as…bipolar? Or something close to it. She’s certainly done better here with the character than she has in the past, but yeah. The book seemed more concerned with filling in as many plot holes as possible rather than doing a more character focused work.

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That was kind of a weird scene. Unless I missed something, Sylvanas didn’t really know why? Maybe she was having one of those emotion-related blackout moments she seems to have?

Yeah, I remember people would bring that up. How she was reckless with her troops, or something, so she was always evil. Lorthemar and Jaina acknowledged Sylvanas was a hero in life at separate points in BfA, but this novel seals that deal.

That seemed to be mentioned quite a bit. How she had sort of a “knowing of a feeling’s absence” more than the feelings themselves. It makes alot of her story more understandable. How she didn’t kill her sisters, and how she didn’t want to even try to raise Lirath, so he wouldn’t know any more pain because of her.

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