Getting people to mass report posts that have data that refutes your views is a weird thing to get people to do when you claim I’m the one running a cult.
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TBF
I wouldn’t be surprised if Hunter / Rogue are next to get reworks. They both have really bad trees. I think Surv has to be the worst tree in the game.
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Hunter, rogue, and WW are the most likely I think. Rogue had one planned in 1.5 that got bumped and all three of their specs do poorly at the top end, and hunters lack any compelling reason to use them in raid groups beyond pure damage tuning which I suspect is something they really want to address. The value of their tools and stuff like tranq shot is great in keys, but they just don’t have anything vital for raids.
Honestly, I think the Hunter and Rogue trees look leagues better than the Monk tree. Just by virtue of them actually wanting to pick their Capstones. Spec trees are probably a crap shoot though. Can’t say I have any love for BM, but marks could use some love even though their tree looks decent. Surv can crank, but from what I’ve been told it’s because of their tier, which just sounds like the last season of SL all over again.
Respectfully, I disagree. They bring immunities to the table, and they’re the first people you send to go do mechanics. If ever there was a default class to assign annoying mechanics to, it’d be hunter. Back up lust is a plus too.
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Did you just say all the data you have shows WW in the bottom then say we are not in the bottom?
Yup you did. You literrally have WW in the bottom of every data point. Sure not dead last but no one is here saying dead last. Bro go to back to your cult. You don’t control these forums and and you can’t ban people who point out your ridiculousness here.
I didn’t say last place. I said in the bottom. See Babys you don’t get to change my argument, This isn’t CNN. You can’t control the narrative and make things out to be what they are not. I said in the bottom and factually WW is in the bottom of dps. We are not in the top. We are not even in the middle. We are in the bottom.
That is in the bottom. It is 100% not in the top half.
Again in the bottom.
Still bottom groups.
In fact you will not find a single data point that matters (no one balances on 50 % percentile) that has WW monk in the top half of DPS for this entire expansion.
And your cult member wasn’t reported for data, even though their data is worthless 50% percentile data, they where reported for calling other players insults. When said other players haven’t even spoken to them in this thread.
Again this isn’t peak cult you don’t control this space. People who speak out can’t be just banned because you and your patreons don’t like them.
Now show a real collective data point that has WW monk on top (in the top 10) for a raid tier this expansion and I won’t say we need a rework. But you can’t… because WW is not on top and WW is struggling this entire expansion. And no you can’t use collective data by class and includes rogue with 3 different dps specs in it, 2 of which out preform WW, to fudge the numbers vs a class that only has one data point aka single dps spec. If you can’t figure out how that is a 300% variable in data, which makes it trash data, then I don’t know what to tell you except I hope you never run a business basing decisions on 300% variable differences.
Rogues need it more than Monk.
Hol’ up folks, hear me out!
Anyone who has played Monk from level 1 to 70 comes in with stars in their eyes about the experience because killing world mobs and doing Normal dungeons as a Monk feels pretty okie dokie. The issues with Monk don’t really emerge until you’ve pushed hours into the class and start to see that you’re fairly hard limited in single target and even AoE, you’re a gimmick fighter relying on a MASSIVE 12% numbers bump from an uninteresting skill that hits for 2000 damage itself. Once you hit that wall, the class outright just isn’t fun anymore. But Rogue?
You level from 1 to 70 with virtually EVERY button press feeling trivial. Even finishing moves, which used to be these big hitting moments in a rotation have become virtually what every other class does every other GCD. What we can do in a front loaded RSK takes Rogue 4 seconds of rotating absolutely pathetic skills. Because of how Stealth functions in PvP, Rogue has been virtually gutted in every area from its form and function. The numbers tuning is there but unless there are specific changes to Rogue as a class, that scaling issue, especially the one that ruins the leveling experience, will never get fixed. Rogue absolutely needs a rework for that introductory reason.
This interaction would go a lot smoother if you used words to show what you meant initially, as I try to be very specific with my word choice so that there isn’t confusion about what I’m saying.
You said WW was at the “bottom”, which has a specific meaning and is synonymous with “last” in a vertically ordered list, so I showed you data that clearly showed it wasn’t at the bottom.
You said WW was 5th from the bottom, so I showed data where it was higher than 5th from the bottom.
Now you’re saying that you didn’t mean “bottom” when you said “bottom”, but you actually meant “bottom half”, which no one would dispute. It certainly would have been easier if you said “bottom half” right out of the gate to avoid this confusion. Although you also said “top” means “top 10”, so it’s hard to follow any consistency.
At no point have I said that WW doesn’t need a rework, I’ve merely disputed the specifics that you’ve used as reasoning for this, which has been hard given your changing definitions of words.
I don’t know what a “300% variable” is, and a google search isn’t giving me any indication of what you mean by that, but if it’s some obscure statistical term then I’m curious why you are looking at the data superficially, with just focusing on the order of the colored bars, rather than statistically through averages and deviation.
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This doesn’t make a spec tree good.
I am also happy with the monk class tree except for:
“Expel Harm Talents” <— I would bake these all into expel harm
Vigorous Expulsion
Strength of Spirits
Profound Rebuttal
and
Hasty Provocation ← Very weird talent to have
Windwalking ← I would 100% buff this talent and add a path to resonant fists.
I also like that we don’t need to take our capstones. I get extra points. It is so important we are able to take both Generous Pour and Close to Heart. These 2 talents alone are enough to ensure our raid spot.
Save Them All / Resonant Fists / Bounce Back are all very strong talents. I see these 3 as our capstones.
Even
Monk Class tree > Druid Class tree
I could certainly see Vigorous Expulsion and Profound Rebuttal fused together, but Strength of Spirit should remain its own talent. That said, the Expel Harm talents should be in the same area on our tree.
Yea that should just be baseline like it used to be. Also how are those the only issues you have with our talent tree? The ToD bloat is ridiculous. Fast Feet shouldn’t exist to begin with. Rows 8 and 9 are blatantly bloated. Para is bloated into 2 talents and it isn’t even up to par with how it was before. Fort Brew is split into 2 talents just because BrM can generate CDR for it. The list goes on.
I do as well, but we don’t really have that many talents we want to pick up and that much leeway to begin with just because of all the bloat in the 2 rows before our capstones. If I’m not grabbing statue + bloat I usually pick up Fort Brew CDR, Detox, and Strength of the Spirit.
Eh… I’d rather have original recipe Zen Meditation, Nimble Brew, and uber windwalking aura as choices.
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Missed that rouges were supposed to get the rework during 10.1.5? What’s even more funny is that they can’t even make one rework in one iteration.
I smell some serious development problems internally
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Rogue developer had a very serious IRL-situation that he opened up about in the Rogue Class discord, and that Ion in-directly confirmed in an interview with Wowhead recently. Even developers from billionaire companies aren’t immortal.
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They did have a whole bunch random scandals that caused a ton of people to quit to the point where they had to make a list of things to cut. Probably that. The devs aren’t really the bad guys here from what I can tell, it’s unbearable management.
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Interesting… looks similar to an earlier post where I noted…
The following talents have been removed:
* (Hasty Provocation) - baseline
* (Strength of Spirit) - baseline
* (Fast Feet) - baseline
* (Fatal Touch) - see Touch of Death changes
* (Improved Touch of Death)
* (Resonant Fists) - moved to Windwalker tree
and
Other talent changes:
* (Vigorous Expulsion) no longer increases Expel Harm healing, guaranteed critical effect to yourself
So it guarantees interaction with Profound Rebuttal. Instead of simply merging the effects, engaging synergy.
Full link: Reminder - Class tree needs rework too - #10 by Ninjafeet-thrall
Happy to talk further and explain why the focus on auto attacks (orienting single target knobs) and shifting of Shadowlands knobs (removal of SEF for class wide Fallen Order).
While addressing auto attacks is certainly a way to shore up ST, I don’t think it’s the way to go. Personally, I’d start off by reverting the nerfs to SEF/Seren and XBG (among other things) before playing around with something our spec has historically had issues with. I’m not so much concerned with knobs affecting ST and AoE since it is my opinion that “AoE or ST?” should never have been a question or the first thought when it came to designing WW in modern WoW.
Also why Fallen Order of all things? Especially if you’re trading SEF for it. Fallen Order is just SEF mixed with Invoke Celestial. Monk should leave the SL Covenant abilities behind. They never gave us anything truly new. It all felt like watered down recycled ideas that never really lived up to their predecessors.
The most exciting things we got from SL were the extra absorb shield in Fort Brew Conduit which somehow didn’t make it onto the talent tree, and BoK giving CDR for Roll which also somehow didn’t make it onto the talent tree. Escape from Reality is pretty nice too.
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Quick, re: Fort Ingredient conduit… that is node 26 on the suggested tree, replacing Expeditious (baseline cooldown reduced). Fort Brew becoming a tier 1 talent instead. That conduit was a really nice addition and since no other spec fights with a 6 minute defensive cooldown for arenas, neither should we… Fort is already inferior to options like DS or DbtS, so the extra cooldown is overly onerous…
Also, EfR is kept too. It was a nice add.
AA isn’t the exclusive knob for damage but it becomes a more prominent one. Right now, AA loop, for a class that boldly declares being a fast, fists of fury, fighter, is downright pathetic. Also, the other huge issue is how badly we scale. I think part of that is the poor synergy we get from all stats, notoriously Haste. Incorporating the AA loop tackles not only single target but with proc chances increases the overall contribution we can realize from haste scaling. Jab and Tiger Palm become additional pressure points to increase single target throughput (WW talent thought of “Shredding Claws” to increase the TP internal bleed and allow AA to armor ignore) while freeing up FoF and SCK to shine a little brighter in their respective areas without DCJ or MotC overwhelming their interactions. Every button should feel good to press by itself, but that’s unfortunately not the case with Monk right now. The end goal for AA is not the damage itself but for AA to become an engine for Chi generation, proc generation, and stable performance for ST throughput, much like Demon Blades or Templar Strikes functions for DH or Ret. Gimme that sweet PI juice instead of always the UH bro ;D
Because BDB and FLS aren’t exactly choice skills across all specs. For BrM, BDB is fine (I won’t spec it, but still neat with the interactions) and for MW, FLS feels pretty good. For WW though, neither of those skills are fun unless they come with, say, a 12% modifier for all the OTHER fun abilities (and whack-a-mole multipliers wasn’t crazy fun in Shadowlands, despite having a lot of burst). I think WoO could fit, but being basically a mastery multiplier is pretty similar with the FLS coercion now.
Now, we don’t need to include a SL ability with the class or to every spec, Fallen Order did make me feel something reminiscent of Inna’s Monk for D3.
The thinking is that with the follow-up node, the talent would be closer to a one-minute, aligned with Avatar or Thunderous for Warrior. By making the ability cooldown faster per stack of buffs gained from the old legendary benefit, rather than fixed cooldown reduction, it creates a crit soft cap and avoids rewarding concentrated investment (and also creates aggravating loops with Skytouch, when crits are more limited without the debuff). Every minute to two, depending on your crit and ability to use critical chance modifiers, you would have a “barrage of clones”, similar to SEF while making a rewarding button that’s largely fire and forget for its direct effects. SEF removal isn’t a predecessor of including FO but a logical result of then asking “why do we even have SEF after such a skill exists”. And we just don’t need it, freeing up creative space for Windwalker talent tree to focus more on Chi magic as a third theme (spiritual perfection and celestial blessing being the first two).
To that note, it wouldn’t matter if SEF stayed and was just updated to function like Fallen Order and given to ALL Monks in the general tree. In fact, that would help make the class probably feel closer together overall. But, Blizzard seemed heckbent on awkwardly forcing Shadowlands abilities into the talent tree so this was more or less an option that hit the “Zoo Monk” optional build while also trivializing injecting any other SL covenant ability “just because”.
Goal: Rapid resets for a clone army.
Monks, thematically tend to live in monastic orders, in groups of other Monks. While there is a Lone Wanderer archetype, it isn’t the case that all Monks (or even most Monks) are going to fit that description. This also appealed to that thematic description where Monk is a more social archetype as well. The other side of the suggested general tree is reorientation back into that “loner” archetype.
What do you think about something like this for Windwalker?
(Concentrated Chi): Jab is replaced with a passive ability called Concentrate. You no longer passively lose Chi. Your Chi refills with refill speed based on number of Concentrate stacks. Each time you spend Chi, gain one stack of Concentrate per Chi spent. Each time you gain one Chi, lose one stack of Concentrate. After 4 seconds at maximum Chi, Concentrate stacks will begin to fall off.
(Proper Concentration): You have a chance equal to your mastery to gain one additional Concentrate when using Chi. (Percentages over 100% may trigger additional times.)
At that point, your Chi abilities are basically just using Energy and Energy becomes useless (which it kind of already is). Energy regeneration then also becomes enhanced with Mastery, and it creates a pretty strong vers/mast burst synergy. (Instead of the haste AA progression designed for sustained throughput.)
At the same time, high mastery will see a really fast paced burn (and a little struggle with Combo Mastery twisting) when the fight ramps into Concentrate windows. I worry this may OVERSHOOT though, with Haste/Mastery absolutely dominating weights. For AoE instead of ST though, Mastery would absolutely crush.
I’d rather lean away from demon blades playstyle for WW. It’s also reminiscent of what sub rogue has where their autos can generate CP. I’m not too big on the idea. Resource generation isn’t too big an issue for us. I also don’t like the thought of adding procs to WW. DoCJ grinds my gears enough as it is.
I like the idea of a crit soft cap. It’s why I want XBG’s nerfs reverted. However, WW doesn’t need another fire and forget. We have two already. Both of which were more or less forced onto us. That said, you’re right in that current SEF has kind of lost its value. It used to spread MotC fast for us, but we have SBT now and MotC is weak now. And that’s before taking into account that SEF was nerfed.
Making FO class wide would be… a leap (to keep things brief). I have a feeling more people would want SEF reverted to MoP/WoD style as opposed to having FO. Regarding having the overall monk class feel closer together, Blizz kinda took apart the useful stuff, but also added some shared stuff. Monk used to share Healing Elixirs, Zen Meditation, and Nimble Brew. You could even toss Fort Brew onto that list just because of how wacky it is right now. But now we all share RSK, Tiger Statue, Disable, etc. I miss the useful stuff as WW.
I don’t know that this would work. Personal misgivings aside, I feel like you’d run out of buttons to hit fast. You’d essentially be cycling between BoK, Filler, and SCK between FoF and RSK. Or worse it becomes spammy BoK. Energy becomes useless as you say. And there is a very high chance of capping out on Chi/running into the Serenity problem.
It’s an ambitious take.
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The CP generation from Rogue was the initial thought process but then as I thought more about it, the idea of using CP spend to fuel faster recovery and mastery to provide a ramp that allows decoupling the haste requirement to build a fast paced APM while still having a high vers/mast burst path.
That’s why instead of auto attacks (favoring haste), I was looking more around mastery to increase the ramp speed.
Yes—you would have a slower time at the front end without the bonus Mastery procs but within a few refills, you’d hit an equilibrium and be relatively high on Chi at all points of the fight, barring intermissions that disrupt your ramp. I also was working with the assumption Tiger Palm was a Chi spender and could be twisted alongside BoK (why it replaced Jab instead of TP).
That and the enforced, mandatory, universal Return To Office policy when dragonflight’s extremely successful base launch was done 100% wfh and many of their best developers didn’t even live in or near Anaheim is such extreme management malpractice that there’s really no other explanation besides malevolence. It really does appear to be an intentional effort to break blizzard’s ability to operate as an independent business unit within Activision. That has clearly shredded their development pipeline on every level
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