Weapon Speeds

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
1
When did they normalize weapons speed? I can't remember if that happened in late Vanilla, or some time later. I guess I'm wondering if "slow weapons" will be a thing in classic, or if speeds were normalized before the version that classic is based on.

Examples:

I remember Pendulum of Doom being super powerful for warrior slams:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=9425
Doomulus Prime to a lesser extent.
https://classicdb.ch/?item=22348

Slow daggers being great for massive ambush/backstabs:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=9453
https://classicdb.ch/?item=12791

Slow swords for sinister strikes:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=12940
https://classicdb.ch/?item=2244

Fast offhand daggers for instant poison:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=18392

Anyone remember other good examples?

I had completely forgotten that "main hand", "one-hand" and "off hand" used to be a thing too.
2
Man, slow weapons were so important for MS Warriors. 90% of the reason Arcanite Reaper is so good for so long. I honestly don't remember when the change happened, either, but my gut says it was TBC or Wrath.
3
weapons speeds have no bearing or feral cat or bear.

They do matter for Ghost wolf or Thunderchicken if I remember
4
Pendulum of Doom on a 2h windfury shaman.

*heavy breathing

/drool
5
11/01/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Felslayer
TBC or Wrath.


I am not even certain if it was Wrath. I seem to remember having conversations about fast 2 handers being "feral" weapons.
6
I deleted my last post because I googled it. Weapon speeds were normalized in 1.8 for Instant attacks and 1.10 instant attacks for Hunters. I thought you were talking about how weapons didn't really have speeds anymore, which indeed come way later. Now not every attack is normalized, but a lot are. There will be a handful of abilities still affected by weapon speed which may end up playing a factor, but there aren't many of them.

This is the normalized formula which we should end up using.

normalized_damage = base_weapon_damage + (X * Attack Power / 14)

(X being a fixed number for weapon types. )

1.7 for daggers
2.4 for other one-handed weapons
3.3 for two-handed weapons
2.8 for ranged weapons

Versus the old formula

damage = base_weapon_damage + (weapon_speed * Attack Power / 14)
7
I vaguely remember that "proc chance" didn't used to be normalized, but was a flat-percent per-attack, rather than a proc-per-minute like it is now. This allowed fast weapons to be good with enchants like Fiery Weapon (https://classicdb.ch/?item=11207). I'm pretty sure that was changed in vanilla though.

There was also a time before "ratings". Items would have a flat +crit %. I'm fairly certain this was changed in vanilla. The result was that some low-level items became crazy powerful because of how they converted +crit to rating. Fletcher's gloves for example:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=7348
+1% crit wasn't that impressive.
Converted to rating:
https://www.wowhead.com/item=7348/fletchers-gloves
14 rating at level 20 is something like 4% crit, much better.

Again, not sure if classic is going to be pre or post rating change.
8
Perhaps a better example of the rating change was the Iron Counterweight:
Before:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=6043
After:
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=7222/iron-counterweight

This can be applied to a weapon at level 1, and gives you something like +30% haste for the first 10 levels or so.
9
Slow weapons are still generally better even after normalization because they hit harder with instant attacks like mortal strike or backstab.
10
I cant remember but I do remember something about enhance needed a 2.6 in main hand and under 2 in offhand. I think...
11
11/01/2018 10:33 AMPosted by Elerius
I vaguely remember that "proc chance" didn't used to be normalized, but was a flat-percent per-attack, rather than a proc-per-minute like it is now. This allowed fast weapons to be good with enchants like Fiery Weapon (https://classicdb.ch/?item=11207). I'm pretty sure that was changed in vanilla though.

There was also a time before "ratings". Items would have a flat +crit %. I'm fairly certain this was changed in vanilla. The result was that some low-level items became crazy powerful because of how they converted +crit to rating. Fletcher's gloves for example:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=7348
+1% crit wasn't that impressive.
Converted to rating:
https://www.wowhead.com/item=7348/fletchers-gloves
14 rating at level 20 is something like 4% crit, much better.

Again, not sure if classic is going to be pre or post rating change.


I'm getting my info from WoWpedia, but it's saying that 'combat rating is a mechanic introduced in patch 2.0.1 which are for combat stats on items that were previously percentage based'

So, we would have the percentages instead of the crit ratings that items currently have.
12
I'm not sure but I think the rating change came with the TBC pre patch - it was somewhere between end of classic and beginning of TBC.
13
11/01/2018 10:45 AMPosted by Ebolachan
I cant remember but I do remember something about enhance needed a 2.6 in main hand and under 2 in offhand. I think...


Wrong era lol. Enh didn't dual wield in classic.
14
11/01/2018 10:45 AMPosted by Igotsoul
Slow weapons are still generally better even after normalization because they hit harder with instant attacks like mortal strike or backstab.


The normalization that I was referring to was the weapon speed normalization. The Pendulum of Doom (and ALL 2h weapons) now have a weapon speed of 3.6. 1h weapons all have a speed of 2.6, daggers are 1.8, etc. Go look up any of the weapons in my original post on wowhead and you'll see their speeds are different.

In modern wow there are no "slow" or "fast" weapons. They are all the same.

Another one I remembered was the Hurricane bow:
http://classicdb.ch/?item=2824
Very fast compared to other bows, which effectively multiplies the value of the sniper scope's +7 per attack.
15
11/01/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Pärker
I'm getting my info from WoWpedia, but it's saying that 'combat rating is a mechanic introduced in patch 2.0.1 which are for combat stats on items that were previously percentage based'

So, we would have the percentages instead of the crit ratings that items currently have.


Correct.
16
11/01/2018 10:57 AMPosted by Elerius
The normalization that I was referring to was the weapon speed normalization


All weapons are the same? No wonder people complain about gear not being exciting in retail.
17
11/01/2018 11:00 AMPosted by Igotsoul
All weapons are the same? No wonder people complain about gear not being exciting in retail.


I think the reason gear isn't exciting in retail is because the game is too fast now. Too fast in a variety of ways.

First, you get gear so fast (so often) that each upgrade is a tiny improvement from what it's replacing. I think people will be surprised how slowly you get replacement gear while leveling in vanilla. This has the effect that each new item feels like a massive jump up from what it replaces, which makes things memorable.

Second, combat is so fast in modern wow, it takes maybe 3-4 shots to kill something that it takes a *massive* increase in power to make it any faster. The next "breakpoint" in power is killing things in 2-3 shots, which requires a 33-50% increase in power. If it takes you 10-12 shots to kill something it only requires a 8-10% increase in power to hit the breakpoint where combat feels faster. Bigger damage numbers don't actually mean a thing (while leveling solo) if you don't hit that breakpoint. Since each new piece of gear you get is such a tiny, marginal improvement over what it replaces you *never* hit those breakpoint while leveling in modern wow, so you never feel more powerful. This is exacerbated by world-scaling (though I am a supporter of world-scaling in modern wow).
18
11/01/2018 10:14 AMPosted by Jdpp
Pendulum of Doom on a 2h windfury shaman.

*heavy breathing

/drool


Back in TBC, I bought Pendulum of Doom from a guy for 100g, I felt soooo bad. But it was too good to pass up. My 39 twink shaman play was glorious, 1 shotting other twinks sometimes if I got lucky with procs and crits.
19
11/01/2018 10:04 AMPosted by Elerius
When did they normalize weapons speed? I can't remember if that happened in late Vanilla, or some time later. I guess I'm wondering if "slow weapons" will be a thing in classic, or if speeds were normalized before the version that classic is based on.

Examples:

I remember Pendulum of Doom being super powerful for warrior slams:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=9425
Doomulus Prime to a lesser extent.
https://classicdb.ch/?item=22348

Slow daggers being great for massive ambush/backstabs:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=9453
https://classicdb.ch/?item=12791

Slow swords for sinister strikes:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=12940
https://classicdb.ch/?item=2244

Fast offhand daggers for instant poison:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=18392

Anyone remember other good examples?

I had completely forgotten that "main hand", "one-hand" and "off hand" used to be a thing too.


Background
Before normalization occurred in patch 1.8, the damage of instant attacks included the weapon speed as a factor to attack power, thus greatly benefitting slow weapons with high swing times. Because of this, slow weapons with lower weapon dps could lead to a higher total damage per second than fast weapons with nominal higher weapon dps, which is counter-intuitive.

One notable example is the Barman Shanker, which was at this time considered by many as the best rare dagger due to its exceptional high swing time, although there were other rare daggers with higher nominal weapon dps (or item level) available.

Formulas
The normalized weapon damage for instant attacks is:

normalized_damage = base_weapon_damage + (X * Attack Power / 3.5)
where X is:

1.7 for daggers
2.4 for other one-handed weapons
3.3 for two-handed weapons
2.8 for ranged weapons

weapon speed for non-normalized attacks (see below)
Prior to patch 1.8, the weapon damage used for instant attacks was:

damage = base_weapon_damage + (weapon_speed * Attack Power / 3.5)

Note that ...

base_weapon_damage + weapon_speed * Attack Power / 3.5
is simply the formula for weapon (white) hit damage, as 3.5 AP = 1 DPS. The nomalized formula treats your weapon as if its swing time was a certain normal value for its type (1.7 sec for daggers, 3.3 sec for two-handed weapons, etc).

Nearly all instant attacks based upon weapon damage are affected by normalization; only a few are not.

Attack Power per damage changed in WoD to 3.5 per 1 point of damage, was 14.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Normalization
20
11/01/2018 11:16 AMPosted by Altonius
11/01/2018 10:14 AMPosted by Jdpp
Pendulum of Doom on a 2h windfury shaman.

*heavy breathing

/drool


Back in TBC, I bought Pendulum of Doom from a guy for 100g, I felt soooo bad. But it was too good to pass up. My 39 twink shaman play was glorious, 1 shotting other twinks sometimes if I got lucky with procs and crits.


The random enh 1 shots were like pulling off a 360 no scope head shot.