Weapon Speeds

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
21
11/01/2018 10:56 AMPosted by Jdpp
11/01/2018 10:45 AMPosted by Ebolachan
I cant remember but I do remember something about enhance needed a 2.6 in main hand and under 2 in offhand. I think...


Wrong era lol. Enh didn't dual wield in classic.


Damn, I coulda sworn it was during vanilla. Heh.
22
It depends on the spell.

Spells like Seal of Command and Slam are absolutely not normalized, but Heroic Strike is. It really depends on the spell.
23
As the OP has probably learned by now, but the rest of the thread has not yet figured out, 'normalization' refers to a specific game mechanic change.

The OP is not asking about that.

They want to know when in WoW's history the change was made that all weapons of a given type have the same speed.

I don't know when exactly that change occurred, but it was long after Vanilla. It was in MoP or WoD sometime, I believe. Have no fear, it will not be in Classic, and we will still have weapons of the same type with varying speeds.

11/01/2018 11:37 AMPosted by Drakonov
It depends on the spell.

Spells like Seal of Command and Slam are absolutely not normalized, but Heroic Strike is. It really depends on the spell.


Heroic Strike is an on-next-hit ability and is not normalized. Generally, only instant attacks were normalized, such as Mortal Strike.

(Also, I believe Slam was normalized.)
24
The attack power multiplier for weapons was normalized in vanilla in patch 1.8 and in 1.10 for ranged weapons.

For all daggers the multiplier is 1.7, all other one handed weapons 2.4, all 2 handers 3.3 and all ranged weapons 2.8.

See http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Normalization
25
I remember trying to compare weapons of different speeds before they added compare stats and the (dps) line in the tooltip... math is hard yo!
26
11/01/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Elerius
Perhaps a better example of the rating change was the Iron Counterweight:
Before:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=6043
After:
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=7222/iron-counterweight

This can be applied to a weapon at level 1, and gives you something like +30% haste for the first 10 levels or so.


Iron counter weight on an Enti's quenched blade, Those were a glorious few weeks in wrath.

Weapon speed normalization does not invalidate the desirability of a slow weapon.
27
11/01/2018 10:14 AMPosted by Tenshirou
11/01/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Felslayer
TBC or Wrath.


I am not even certain if it was Wrath. I seem to remember having conversations about fast 2 handers being "feral" weapons.

Yeah I dont recall specifics either but I think I recall that as well (mained feral in wrath)
28
11/01/2018 10:24 AMPosted by Pärker
I deleted my last post because I googled it. Weapon speeds were normalized in 1.8 for Instant attacks and 1.10 instant attacks for Hunters. I thought you were talking about how weapons didn't really have speeds anymore, which indeed come way later.

Yeah I thought the same.

11/01/2018 11:17 AMPosted by Theloras
11/01/2018 10:04 AMPosted by Elerius
When did they normalize weapons speed? I can't remember if that happened in late Vanilla, or some time later. I guess I'm wondering if "slow weapons" will be a thing in classic, or if speeds were normalized before the version that classic is based on.

Examples:

I remember Pendulum of Doom being super powerful for warrior slams:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=9425
Doomulus Prime to a lesser extent.
https://classicdb.ch/?item=22348

Slow daggers being great for massive ambush/backstabs:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=9453
https://classicdb.ch/?item=12791

Slow swords for sinister strikes:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=12940
https://classicdb.ch/?item=2244

Fast offhand daggers for instant poison:
https://classicdb.ch/?item=18392

Anyone remember other good examples?

I had completely forgotten that "main hand", "one-hand" and "off hand" used to be a thing too.


Background
Before normalization occurred in patch 1.8, the damage of instant attacks included the weapon speed as a factor to attack power, thus greatly benefitting slow weapons with high swing times. Because of this, slow weapons with lower weapon dps could lead to a higher total damage per second than fast weapons with nominal higher weapon dps, which is counter-intuitive.

One notable example is the Barman Shanker, which was at this time considered by many as the best rare dagger due to its exceptional high swing time, although there were other rare daggers with higher nominal weapon dps (or item level) available.

Formulas
The normalized weapon damage for instant attacks is:

normalized_damage = base_weapon_damage + (X * Attack Power / 3.5)
where X is:

1.7 for daggers
2.4 for other one-handed weapons
3.3 for two-handed weapons
2.8 for ranged weapons

weapon speed for non-normalized attacks (see below)
Prior to patch 1.8, the weapon damage used for instant attacks was:

damage = base_weapon_damage + (weapon_speed * Attack Power / 3.5)

Note that ...

base_weapon_damage + weapon_speed * Attack Power / 3.5
is simply the formula for weapon (white) hit damage, as 3.5 AP = 1 DPS. The nomalized formula treats your weapon as if its swing time was a certain normal value for its type (1.7 sec for daggers, 3.3 sec for two-handed weapons, etc).

Nearly all instant attacks based upon weapon damage are affected by normalization; only a few are not.

Attack Power per damage changed in WoD to 3.5 per 1 point of damage, was 14.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Normalization

Thanks Theloras!
29
11/01/2018 11:00 AMPosted by Igotsoul
11/01/2018 10:57 AMPosted by Elerius
The normalization that I was referring to was the weapon speed normalization


All weapons are the same? No wonder people complain about gear not being exciting in retail.


Yeah that is one reason, weapons are just stat sticks that get replaced soo fast or impossible to get.
I was stuck with 277 weapon and 288 shield in bfa on tank for a long time, I got lucky at warfront to replace them.
I miss those proc weapons with different weapon speeds and more melee dps.

But yeah gear is pretty much as boring as it is in ff14 which never had a good armor system.
30
11/01/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Felslayer
Man, slow weapons were so important for MS Warriors. 90% of the reason Arcanite Reaper is so good for so long. I honestly don't remember when the change happened, either, but my gut says it was TBC or Wrath.


There was a normalisation patch sometime during classic that I wasn't around for, they messed with it again in TBC and Wrath and Cata before finally giving up on it and making all 2H's and most other weapons the same speed in MoP.