Blizzard never used white supremacist rhetoric ever to justify the Horde.
I think that is entirely your own projection.
Thrall’s Horde is actually coded as biblical allegory to the Israelites.
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This is like the second post I’ve made today, and the point is that the Scourge is an easy counterexample against your implicit claim that “defenders are inherently good, aggressors inherently bad.”
In a way, it’s both. They want to have war before Azerite disrupts the balance of power- thereby preventing a war of annihilation. But yes, they planned to eventually win, and secure peace on their own terms.
The problem is this is true of Thrall, but Garrosh is a metaphor for “Horde Fascism becomes Orc Supremacy Fascism” as a WoW version of “First they came for the Forsaken, but I was not Forsaken. Then they came for the Goblins, but I was not a Goblin. Etc”
Voljin as Warchief goes back to “Underdogs Struggling To Survive” but then he unceremoniously dies.
Sylvanas is just a hot mess.
But the narrative core of the Horde (Orcs, Tauren, Trolls, Belves) are former slaves, exiles, and nomads who find a new home with eachother.
That Blizzard seems to have forgotten for the majority of the past 10 years.
Note: Forsaken aren’t included precisely because during the Thrall Panel they weren’t mentioned as one of the core races of the Horde. The Forsaken are literally not mentioned as integral to the Horde during the Thrall Panel. I still am not sure how to interpret this.
If I had to take a shot: I think Blizzard, including the likes of Golden and Copeland, have no idea what to do with the Forsaken.
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“But yes, they planned to eventually win, and secure peace on their own terms”
Then there will be “they will break the treaty by dropping the night elves, so we will take the dwarfs hostage,” then there will be “we do not have enough resources, we need to make the hostages work” and the like. And thus, the war of annihilation will be lost by the Alliance as soon as it agrees to Sylvanas’ terms.
I forgot about Garrosh…
He wasn’t the Alliance’s problem as much as he was a Horde problem. His disdain for the undead is akin to the Scarlet Crusade. The Alliance then would have just as many white supremacists.
The Forsaken were discriminated against by both the Alliance and the Horde, they are are one of the only races, goblins being the other that could actually claim racial discrimination.
The factions of Azeroth treat literal aliens better than it treats free undead and goblins.
The Forsaken weren’t discriminated against until after they had demonstrated themselves to be an unstable betray-happy group of lunatics.
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Gonna pop in for a bit to say that the 14 words comparison is most likely mine, not Kyalin’s. I know I’ve made the comparison in a derisive manner over how stupid I thought BFA’s premise turned out to be for the horde prepatch. I’ve said it several times on this forum before, and I’m pretty sure I even made the comparison directly to Kyalin herself at least once. It was this line in particular from A Good War that left that taste in my mouth.
I don’t think the horde is, or is supposed to be, a literal white supremacist group or anything like that. But when you have a line like that preceding a blitz through enemy territory that culminates in the use of the term genocide in official published WoW material, I feel as though the game explicitly wanted the reader to make those associations on at least a “these are the baddies” level.
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I suspect that is true. And I think that’s stupid, too. They HAD to have known that people would make those associations. Knowing that a story that was so heavily skewed to one side was the exact opposite of what the players wanted to experience.
Having said that… the points of the canon story, I am fine with. The story-telling; however, makes a lot of people feel like trash! Nobody wants a front-row seat to The Genocide Experience- from either side.
I’m not going to say that it was as bad as WOT to the Alliance, but BFL or really any battle where a major city is lost for a long time is going to be really bad.
So much for Thrall’s line in Shadows Rising (iirc) “The Horde is not the Horde without the Forsaken”.
The Forsaken are a core part of the Horde, but they’ve always been an outlier, and I think they should stay that way. I could see them conceivably trying to make the Forsaken more like the Maldraxxi… regardless of what happens, it probably shouldn’t be written by someone who never liked the Forsaken’s previous stories.
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I think the only path moving forward is having the Forsaken be a “Sixth House” of Maldraxxus, watching over reality/Azeroth for the Eternal Ones. “The House of the Forsaken”.
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It was a good comparison - and yes, I did get it from you. You were the Horde poster that I heard mentioning it - and I thought for the reasons you outlined that it fit.
I personally don’t. Not to the extent that they’d lose their cultural identity or racial fantasy, but their “Alliance of Convenience” grew old ages ago. Especially since them becoming inconvenient for the rest of the Horde can’t happen due to game mechanics. They as a people need to at least become something more symbiotic with the other Horde races, who have really stuck their necks out for them here in post-BfA. Especially with the Forsaken bringing so little of value to the table in their current state.
It is about time the Forsaken become an actual part of the Horde, rather than “using it”. Because at this point it comes off less as “pragmatic”, and more that edgy kid pretending he’s “too cool for friends”.
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This makes up a not insignificant part of the Forsaken’s playerbase.
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Ages ago? you mean like Cataclysm when that part of the intro was changed- to them trying to prove their loyalty to the cause of the Horde?
I don’t know what this means.
They have been and are symbiotic with the rest of the Horde.
Garithos apologist steriotypes undead. Water still wet. Alliance still boring.
lol if you’re now going to sit there and unironically try to tell me that the Forsaken playerbase doesn’t have an above average proportion of teenage edgelords when the Undead playerbases historical proclivity for griefing is so well known that the Undead Rogue has become a symbol of ganking.
Uh huh, and whose fault is that?
Yeah it’s also pretty rich that a presumable fan of the Forsaken faction accuses the Alliance of being boring when the whole modus operandi of the Forsaken is poaching interesting Alliance stuff.
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You mean when they became Sylvanas’ personal “Bulwark Against the Infinite” and she was in constant conflict with Garrosh? But not for the same reasons Jin and Baine were? Yes, they totally grew beyond that “just using the Horde” simply because it was now not explicitly stated in the Forsaken intro … despite a lack of motives for them to do so. Which is why you often see even up through BfA the Forsaken operating as an independent Force on their own. Especially with Sylvie.
And what I mean is. An “Alliance of Convenience” is a two way street, but because of Game Mechanics the partnership with the Forsaken was never allowed to become inconvenient for the rest of the Horde. No matter how problematic they or their leader became. When you have even Garrosh (Orc Hitler) Hellscream recognizing Sylvie’s gone full LK … “For the Horde” (which was suss then, and proven a lie now) … you got a problem. Especially with how the Forsaken currently are, in their brutilized state.
I mean, Garrosh’s biggest targets were really the Horde. He effectively used the Tauren in Org as hostages to keep Baine in line, and went pretty slaughter heavy on the Darkspear. The meatgrinder he deliberately crafted at Theramore was also largely comprised of Tauren, Darkspear, and MU Orcish Eitrigg loyalists (so even among Orcs there was a purity test). His contempt for the Forsaken was well known on top of this. As well as pushing the BEs and Tauren to the brink of leaving the Horde outright (or joining the Alliance in the prior’s case). Frankly, he was only ever really a threat to the Alliance as a whole if he had managed to successfully purge and “purify” his True Horde of all the other races and ideologies that comprised it.
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Whoever wrote it, I guess. I just don’t find it interesting. I’m sure somebody does.
Does being a ganker make you a teenage edgelord?
Now this I can give a reasonable response to. I was pretty disappointed with how some of the BFA-poaching went, and posted about it during development, so we can partially agree to a point. Ultimately, Sira and Delaryn didn’t have that much content before they were made into Dark Rangers, and I’m not sure they’ve actually been completely poached yet.
But I would have much rather seen existing forsaken characters get developed.
With respect to the Forsaken having WC3 Alliance stuff… on that we might disagree. I personally don’t care. That’s their origin story.
No. it is explicitly stated that they are trying to prove their loyalty to the cause.
You and I have incompatable views of the story.