We need to talk about how we talk about stories

Here on the story forum, we are, bluntly, lore nerds. We draw from a wide range of sources to pull together and relate a thousand different data points to construct a picture of what we understand to be true, or what we think will be true about the story. We craft theories, we discuss plotholes and dissatisfying moments. We represent our ‘teams’ racially or factionally, and we often do it with a central consideration in mind: “what is canon?” What are the facts of the narrative, and based on those facts, what can we glean?

This won’t come as a surprise to many of you, but I have problems with this model.

A discussion based purely on what is fact obscures what’s important in a story: how does it make the audience feel? This is not a history class, nor is it a public policy debate - it’s an entertainment medium that’s designed to get people to emotionally react to a narrative, and to find something memorable or enjoyable in it. Feelings are the point, and if your discussion ignores how people feel about the narrative on the basis that said feeling is out of step for what is technically canon, then you’ve missed the point, because feelings don’t always care about what’s factual. The way in which those facts are conveyed is more important than what those facts actually are.

It’s tempting from here to then say that discussion is pointless because feelings are subjective and everyone likes different things, and while that’s partially true, it ignores that human psychology is a science. We are more alike than we are different, and we as a species have produced a great deal of observable patterns that do a fairly decent job of predicting how we behave and how we emotionally react to things. It’s based for example on the psychological work of Scott Rigby, a prominent video game researcher, that I’m confident in saying that human beings play video games in order to achieve feelings of competence, relatedness, and autonomy. People have critiqued my saying so as a lecture, but it’s a nod to the science, and we don’t get to ignore that science.

Nor do we get to ignore the works of film, literature, and yes video game critics who have come before us, and have developed a whole encyclopedia of terms that we ourselves use based on repeated observation. Things like “show don’t tell”, “ludonarrative dissonance”, “Chekov’s gun”, “mary sue” are themselves things that we have based on years of studying, classifying, observing, and recognizing patterns in stories and how audiences commonly react to them that help us to explain, or to predict, the quality of a story. This is important for our purposes because it allows us to explain why a story doesn’t or didn’t work - and to see the end-goal when we are creating suggestions.

Two of those truisms are “know your audience” and “know your medium”. The latter I’ve discussed up and down these boards already, but the focus of today’s post is the former. What IS the audience, and why does that matter? The audience is the 2021 global video game market - inclusive of existing customers and potential customers - and yes, this is a very business-minded discussion because Activision-Blizzard is a profit-seeking company. The story is important because it drives the marketing and therefore is critical to attracting and retaining players, and if you disagree with that, then I would ask you to go look at the last fifteen years of AAA video game trailers. Story may not matter to everyone in the same way, but it DOES matter, even subconsciously - and it matters more with every passing year.

Story furthermore does not conflict with gameplay. It supports gameplay. It integrates with gameplay. It exists for the gameplay, and to prop up sales for the game - and if it can’t do that then it is failing. I say this because it is common for someone to say that writers shouldn’t care about how the audience feels, that the story isn’t for the audience, or that the audience doesn’t “get it”. If the audience doesn’t get it, it’s because the writer failed to communicate it, and so long as they are writing a story to support sales of a product, yes, they do have to care about how the audience receives it. They don’t own the story, the shareholders do, and if their handling of the story is acting against the shareholders’ interests, then they are failing to do their jobs.

I bring this up because we are going through some numbers on the Night Elf discord that I run. I need to get through a few other projects, but once I do, I intend to collate and present this data in a future post. There are important shifts taking place in WoW’s playerbase and in the total potential audience at the same time, and I feel that these need to be considered when we examine the concept of “knowing the audience”, and from there, what kind of a story WoW should tell. At points in it, some are going to wonder why a discussion on markets and demographics is in the story forum, and because that explanation is long I wanted to put it in this, separate, thread.

More to come - stay tuned.

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I would agree on my part - there is more to come from me as well. I would type more, but I don’t have much time atm. However, I must say, this appears to be how you approach the story in general, and I disagree.

It is more of your: “Let’s use my criteria and biased and unprovable set of facts to get to declaring my opinion as fact!”

Even your statement of:

Just because someone did research doesn’t make it undeniable scientific fact. It may be a science, and a scientific approach, but it is hardly more than subjective analysis and theory - and that is easily ignored.

I could go on, but I have errands to do. I would rather go on than do errands.

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I’m afraid I have to disagree with this, and I see it as little more than a statement that you reserve the right to ignore research papers and the citation of work performed by experts in areas of their expertise if they disagree with your previously-held beliefs.

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You should really include some kind of tl:dr

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I don’t believe every person who fancies themselves an expert and claims to present research, no.

There was “research” by “experts” when Spontaneous Generation was popular. There are “experts” with “research” saying the Earth is flat. There are “experts” with “research” saying Biden and the Democrats stole the election and Trump really won by a landslide.

There some things that can proven with certitude as facts. I don’t think psychological profiles of gamers as a group has much weight, when there are so many different types, especially these days. It can help color a conversation as a tidbit of peripheral information, perhaps, but I wouldn’t call it incontrovertible scientific fact that must be taken into account.

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See this is where you lost me.

Feelings may not care about what is factual, and you are absolutely entitled to your feelings, but feelings will never be more important than what is factual about the lore within the discussions.

And it’s hard because of the way the narrative is designed, there are many ways that the narrative exploits emotions to mislead players into having a specific point of view.

It’s based for example on the psychological work of Scott Rigby, a prominent video game researcher, that I’m confident in saying that human beings play video games in order to achieve feelings of competence, relatedness, and autonomy.

It’s interesting that you mention this because I’m pretty sure this has been central in WoW development discussions about how to move WoW away from the direction that players expect to be rewarded in their games. This expectation has often been criticized by players who get annoyed with the constant pat on the back that WoW (and fantasy RPG’s in general) give it’s players. This framework is getting old. The hero doesn’t always win, if the hero did then where’s the danger? it’s like getting a participation trophy.

I bring this up because we are going through some numbers on the Night Elf discord that I run. I need to get through a few other projects, but once I do, I intend to collate and present this data in a future post. There are important shifts taking place in WoW’s playerbase and in the total potential audience at the same time, and I feel that these need to be considered when we examine the concept of “knowing the audience”, and from there, what kind of a story WoW should tell. At points in it, some are going to wonder why a discussion on markets and demographics is in the story forum, and because that explanation is long I wanted to put it in this, separate, thread.

Is this still about being unhappy with the burning of Teldrassil story? I’m trying to make sense of this entire post and the reasoning for it? You seem to make a lot of posts relating to that I just want to make sure that I understand you.

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If you can find me an instance of one of those pieces of research actually getting published and peer reviewed, then we can talk about this. Until then, if you want my cards on the table, here they are:

http^s://selfdeterminationtheory.org/SDT/documents/2006_RyanRigbyPrzybylski_MandE.pdf

Rigby has published several articles on the topic, runs a firm on the basis of this and other research, and has spoken at GDC.

@ Luxio

I disagree with your first paragraph, and your second one gets us to why - and to illustrate that, I go to the classic example of the War of the Thorns as presented in the game versus how it was presented in the books. The books contain a good number of facts that significantly mitigate the overall feeling of loss wrapped up in the event - but these are hidden from view from most of the playerbase, and are largely overwritten by a visual and interactive experience that was extremely focused on its job of presenting the loss.

Episodes like this and others cause the facts of the narrative to be experienced in different ways, and for the portions of the playerbase that don’t see them due to the inherent inaccessibility of transmedia narrative: not at all. This is one of many illustrations as to why storytelling matters more than the mere text.

Regarding your second block, what I would note about WoW development is that the game has been in consistent decline since it adopted Kosak’s “Hero Factory” model, which appears to be closest to what you’re arguing for there. That is not to say that we don’t have conflict and setbacks - the feeling of competence after all has to be put in context to the challenges that we overcome, but if in the extreme case where there just is no reward for overcoming that challenge, or it feels like there is no reward, people will stop playing and go for something else.

You may have noticed that I did pivot from your point of danger to challenge. Given that games are an interactive medium - there was a reason for that.

Finally, I have been discussing Night Elf issues since 2010 - that’s where I specialize as far as participation on these boards goes. The Burning of Teldrassil is one of my more recent complaints, the others extend back to Cataclysm, and consist of issues that either were not corrected or have only been amplified since then.

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I think you have enough self awareness to know there are published scientific papers justifying that race is biologically real and certain races are simply more intelligent than others.

In fact, noted discoverer of DNA Watson is one such person who has published papers saying race science is valid and real.

The scientific community considered homosexuality a mental illness until the 70s, and were sexually abusing women until the 60s for “hysteria” and to cure “lesbianism”, and were prescribing coke over the counter until the 60s.

Scientific papers are not the arbiters of truth when scientific narratives are based upon a Sociocultural hermeneutic.

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I work full time, I can’t read all of this.

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So what’s your conclusion here? Are we just going to throw out research papers that you disagree with because at one time or another our understanding of things updated? That seems pretty childish. How about this instead - if you disagree with the conclusions offered by a research paper, present a competing, evidence-backed view as opposed to conjecture, unbacked skepticism, and examples that don’t relate to the topic.

You want to argue that Rigby is wrong? Particularly regarding study 4? Alright, fine - present me with something concrete as to why.

I did not look at the link, I saw enough right there.

If he presents it as a theory, I have no issue with him. I have issue with YOU claiming his theory is more than what he claimed. Now, if you originally said it was a theory, that is fine. But when you say:

You present it as some indisputable science that we can’t ignore, when the author outright states it is a theory.

If your whole point of this thread is that presentation matters more than facts when discussing the story, you presented a theory as science that can not be ignored, when even the dude who did the research has the good sense to call it a theory.

It is a small quibble but it goes to the heart of your arguments.

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The following:

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He referenced the theory, then performed four studies to determine if it explained video game motivation…

But I guess this tells me all I really need to know about your willingness to engage with evidence.

With all due respect, I feel like we talk about this a lot. More than we do the kind of dry analysis you’re decrying, in fact, at least since BfA dropped.

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It depends on the topic.

If it were a lore point, in discussion of the story, I would weigh the evidence presented in lore as canon.

If I were a juror, I would give much consideration to the evidence, as lives and fortunes could hang in the balance.

As far as theories that aim to explain why people play video games, and their bearing on WoW lore… poppycock.

I think it is fine to discuss it as a peripheral theory, but when you present it as something that can not be ignored, it seems ludicrous. And I fault your presentation.

If you said “hey here is this theory to consider - whether true or not, he raises some points.” I would think that is fair. But to say that theory must be considered as true because it is “science” is outlandish.

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I largely agree with you here. I think it was unfair to present A Good War as side by side with Elegy. I think A Good War was a logic piece and Elegy was an emotional piece. I have to admit that I read A Good War first that that changed my opinion on Elegy for the worse. Let me explain.

A Good War set up the logical reasons why the Horde attacked Teldrassil. It made sense. The way the War of Thorns was described was actually really in game accurate. When I read A Good War, I think of objective lore.

And then I read Elegy and the thing that really changed my opinion was the propaganda. Elegy was loaded with fantasy propaganda. The Horde were described as being essentially “boogie men” everything about was emotional.

So I do get what you are saying, but that emotion driven story in Elegy skewed the narrative. It painted Sylvanas and the Horde very differently than the Horde painted the Night Elves. A Good War did show the Horde and the night elves more realistically in my opinion. I’m not sure if it just boils down to Christie Golden’s writing vs Robert Brooks’s writing but it’s why I didn’t recommend anyone seeking an objective view of the burning of Teldrassil to read A Good War.

Episodes like this and others cause the facts of the narrative to be experienced in different ways, and for the portions of the playerbase that don’t see them due to the inherent inaccessibility of transmedia narrative: not at all. This is one of many illustrations as to why storytelling matters more than the mere text.

I agree. I think there needs to be less subjective bias in the writing and make the narrative a singular narrative again, one objective point of view. That’s the only way all players have access to the same information without faction bias or intentional misdirection.

Look at the different perspectives on the Battle of Dazar 'alor. I always fall back to the difference between what the Horde hear Genn say to Rastakhan vs what the Alliance hear.

Genn (Horde): “King Rastakhan of Zandalar…I order you to submit! You will bow before your new master, King Anduin Wrynn, and you will deliver your daughter to us as a hostage!”

Genn (Alliance): “King Rastakhan of Zandalar… On behalf of the Alliance, and in the name of King Anduin Wrynn, I hereby request your surrender.”

This little change in verbiage makes a whole lot of difference, but which is “true?” I’d wager the Horde one is true because Genn in this instance is a conquerer and it’s fair to assume that he believes and the Alliance believes, that they are farm more civilized than the Horde so their response would come off more civilized under a biased light, but to the Horde they are more aggressive, not unlike colonizers. It was an intentional misdirection to create a personal bias on both sides. They wanted to reinforce an idea of Alliance supremacy and create a feeling of anger within the Horde against the Alliance.

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I have no disagreement with either point - but I’m going to continue from here.

My argument on that point is not that facts don’t matter - they absolutely do and it’s reasonable to use them to understand what is true and what isn’t in the story - that’s fair enough. My argument is that how we present the facts matters more than the underlying facts themselves because they drive how the audience engages with the narrative, and understands it.

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That is a good way to put it. I think you might be on to something when you said:

It is something I consider. Even the titles hint at the themes you bring up. “A Good War” as a title seems to be either justifying or setting a bar for what could make a War good. “Elegy” seems wrought with trauma and, as you put it, propaganda. There is something being said in a subjective way, as it is an elegy.

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Elegy means a poem of serious reflection, which it was in a way. mostly about the illusions of faith, and illusions of fantastical enemies.

A Good War on the other hand was a moral conundrum asking readers to reflect on if there is such thing as noble, ethical warcraft.

Both highlight the pros and cons of the Warcraft franchise.

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This is why I scorned science and pursued history. Historical papers are much more fun.