We need to speak in a unified voice for there to be SV improvements

i think a major problem in regards to why we’ve seen little change to the spec is because everybody is asking for 10 different things. as someone who’s never played ranged survival, i imagine its legion incarnation when the change to melee occured bore no resemblance to sv as it once was. i see no reason why they couldn’t have made a 4th spec.

my idea to provide some improvements. i think the current way the spec is built is serviceable, and my idea would basically to just baseline a lot of current talent abilities. talents shouldn’t be necessary for your spec to function.

everyone knows that picture of the bfa spriest talent tree with the car and the talents as crucial components for the car.

anyway my idea for new abilities would be:

Favored Terrain
a buff you can swap around that has a significant cooldown. outdoors if you favor pvp/m+, indoors if you favor m+/raid. something like the dark iron racial and the night elf racial that gives you buffs depending on if it’s day or night.

Encyclopedic Lore
a button that would work like beast lore + hunter’s mark but provide a buff to a specific enemy type (humanoid, beast, abberation, etc) to prevent cheese this would have a cooldown tied to it if you swapped from one type to another, and tried to swap back to the previous one.

Dual Wield
just let sv use dw ffs

and as for baselining

viper’s venom or terms of engagement, both underused talents, with vv only really seeing use if you are building around ST and using nesingwary’s trapping aparatus. replace with dire beast from wod, or axe toss from legion, both of them ogcd. (i’m aware that there are no dps ogcds, but, i think this could be something unique to sv)

next is to baseline guerilla tactics which has been a mandatory pick. replace with deterrence + counterattack

next would be to baseline camouflage. interesting ability but it’s not a very good pick compared to the other talents in its row. replace with master tactician, and allow it to work with aspect of the eagle, wildfire bombs, and serpent sting

same deal with steel trap. replace with black arrow trap, which would in turn replace steel trap. i would imagine this working like black arrow once did…but as a trap

in the next row i’d baseline posthaste, and replace it with narrow escape from wod with the caveat of it increasing the cooldown of disengage

and for the penultimate row, i would baseline tip of the spear. i personally find mongoose bite to be a bit too restrictive for my taste since it favors st and not much else. tip of the spear on the other hand is a lot more general use. unsure what i’d replace it with.

and last but not least for the final row:

baseline chakrams and wildfire infusion, scrap birds of prey and give it a new row of talents, which i would make:

aspect of the beast, a returning talent

exotic munitions from wod, which would essentially be wildfire infusion except for your serpent sting. it would either cast viper sting, scorpid sting, or spider sting.

throw glaive, which would serve as an upgrade for chakrams.

ultimately the goal here would be to give sv a booster shot in the arm to make it a more viable choice in world, pvp, pve (raid/m+) content. it would also make it highly distinct and give it a little more flavor or sense of identity

tl;dr fix sv by baselining abilities that are generally considered to be mandatory picks in those rows, and replace with more competitive talents. bring back old talents instead of just cutting and discarding them and trying to reinvent the wheel.

if you’ve made it this far, thank you. i know i said “we need a unified voice” and it might seem like “my voice is the correct one, you should support this” but these are just my personal thoughts on how sv could be reworked. at the end of the day, asking for 10 different things will continue to fracture our voices and truly get across what we want for this god forsaken spec

1 Like

Half the people on this forum want it to go back to being ranged, so you are never going to find a unified voice on this issue.

Blizzard 100% screwed the pooch on this one.

11 Likes

Talent changes aside, the kit feels fine overall. A ~5-10% damage increase on the entire kit and an additional 15-20% buff to Raptor Strike/Mongoose damage would be a nice starting point. From there you can start retuning talents; if we’re spending three globals (TotS) to buff one (1) Raptor Strike, then that RS should hit like a truck, as it is kinda the entire point of the spec; weaving in and out of melee and ranged.

PvP is a whole other beast. We should have a generalized Hunter PvP thread in the PTR to discuss the class as a whole because we’re in a really bad spot.

1 Like

And there it is. The kit is not fine, but I also don’t want to to go back to range… what do to?

I mean that’s just a perspective difference on the spec itself. I thought I wouldn’t like Survival and would never want to play it, but after playing it for the past month or so it’s way more fun than MM, and this is coming from an MM vanilla purist. Number tuning alone would make the spec feel good, but of course there are a bunch of QoL/convenience changes that should be made to not just SV, but the class as a whole. Most notably is the return of our 1 sec GCD that was given to us in Cata – this single handedly can make the entire spec feel and perform significantly better, especially since SV/BM rely on high amounts of haste to even be playable.

I mean, I was one of the few that played it during Legion despite it being a mess. It was a fun mess. Compared to that the BFA/SL version is boring. It may be “functional” but it doesn’t actually do anything.

I even made a couple revamps before and during BFA to no avail.

The most recent, more complete one. This is mostly how I want it, could use an update though.

And My end of Legion/ BFA Beta one I still love this idea. Could be a 4th spec for all I care.

The spec makes little sense to me in PvP. I do enjoy dabbling in it, but as I have lamented elsewhere, you spend most of your time at range and only dip in to use a TooS RS or something, or maybe WC. The rest of your time is spent hucking grenades, using KC, and using your defensive leap and offensive gap closer to land traps. You don’t even joust with it. It’s very counterintuitive as melee specs go.

You’re frankly just a handful of changes from this spec being ranged at this point, but if Blizzard INSISTS on double and tripling down on their mistake…

  • Raptor Strike damage needs a boost. Single target is hot garbage in PvE, and questionable in PvP. Seems like it ought to be a situation of “If this hunter is running at me, I need to get away because there’s going to be a consequence,” rather than, “LOL Memes”
  • Wing Clip doesn’t need to exist. Should just have Conc Shot like BM and MM. Strengthens nonsensical kiting melee weapon archetype. Success!
  • Aspect of the Eagle should have a damage component, even if only indirect. RS could deal nature damage for the duration. Not a huge buff, but noticeable, and a practical reason to use the CD (outside of niche circumstances.) A small haste boost could work here, or an “X guarantees reset of Y in this window” mechanic.
  • Need one of the following: Better, more consistent heals; An additional way to mitigate damage on CD; Some kind of absorb or shield. OR, if SV doesn’t get one of those, they need stronger kiting tools, since it’s implicit that kiting is supposed to be SV’s mitigation. A two-handed melee class that’s supposed to kite. Think about that.

please clarify if you mean the kit with or without talents

All the balance goes to complete crap at the top end in both PvE and PvP. Until about ilevel 197 or so, everything seems fine.

Revert it back to what it used to be.

Easy peasy.

7 Likes

A spec that focuses on dots, fire and poison and bleeds. Just give it a ranged weapon slot, and let it benefit from the stats on both weapons until they figure out the tuning. Make a glyph that changes the appearance of the bombs to be projectiles (and while they are at it, make a hatchet glyph for the bombs).

(Just kidding avout the stats for both weapons, I have no idea how feasible that is.)

1 Like
  • Buff ST damage (Raptor/Mongoose).
  • Buff lackluster talents.
  • Buff lackluster legendaries.
  • Give Flayed Shot and Death Chakram some potential AoE scaling so those covs are actual M+ options.

That’s about all that’s needed.

We could go into further pipedreams for 10.x, but SV’s in a decent enough place playflow-wise.

The only playstyle change I’d really be interested in seeing is to largely take out Aspect of the Eagle, turn Serpent Sting back into Lacerate (or, Venom’s Edge, to maintain the poison concept), and instead give like 3 charges (regenerated every 10 seconds or so, and on kill) by which to automatically turn any melee skill (Wing Clip, Muzzle, Raptor Strike, Carve, Lacerate, you name it) into a ranged one when used on a target who’s out of range. More utility, less bloat.

Well, that and maybe giving us a melee weapon range… given that we’re thematically bound for now to spears. I would think a long-*** spear could reach maybe some 2 yards further than dual daggers, no?

Dang, grats on enjoying it. It took Legion MM’s RNG fest to make me try it originally. Kinda wish you could have seen it then, actually; Fury of the Eagle (Artifact weapon power) was pretty great.

For me… the potential niche that survival should have… the whole point of the spec, what makes it unique over any other dps…

Is a utility to weave in and out of melee +range for it’s rotation. I think survival should have the niche to have like 100% uptime on the their target, by being able to go through cycles of range and melee rotation.

To me, this is what would separate them from every other class instead of being another warrior spec…

As far as what type of damage it should specialize in…I guess sustained AOE and Single target… with a weakness of lacking in burst.

I don’t think this would really work. That is already a niche covered by pretty much every ranged in the game. High movement fights can be a bigger detriment to certain specs, but I don’t know if high up time through melee and ranged is enough to help it carve out a meaningful niche.

For instance, let’s assume things are balanced (I know they aren’t but hypothetically anyway) why bring someone who sometimes has to be melee to optimize damage / keep their uptime vs say another ranged who doesn’t have to give up anything to function?

I agree the spec needs a niche, but I don’t see how this would be a compelling one to bring it I suppose.

1 Like

Survival could get every buff ever suggested and it would still be the least played spec in the game

Survival was literally the #1 Simmed DPS in the game for Uldir in BFA, and unlike most other classes that can only sim that much in patchwerk, survival actually had super high uptime and performed really well in a realistic raid environment

And despite all that, it was still the least played spec in the game

seriously Blizz, you dropped the ball and did not get the memo

if a MELEE class with 0 Utility exists. It should justify itself with extremely high damage output. This was the case in BFA, but not right now in Castle Narthia

Because it is a completely unique playstyle… And no, no other class cycles between melee and range. Some other mmo’s have classes that do that. WoW, none.

Otherwise the survival hunter is just a class without an identity that has no need to exist.

The damage niche survival would have is really good sustain ST and AOE, with low burst. This would require them to be very high on the meters though to be useful… especially for raids like castle nathria, as there are a lot of fights where a short burst window matters.

I’m not saying it’s not a unique playstyle. I’m talking about why other players would invite you.

For instance, ranged DPS by default have incredibly high up time, often zero down time. Melee by default are punished more by mechanics or needing to move off target for one reason or another.

If we go hybrid, the best case scenario is about as much uptime as ranged. Which is a cool potential aspect, but I wouldn’t define it as a useful niche that other players will want filled in their groups. Does that make sense? The playstyle is fine (without trying to waste into the melee / ranged fiasco), but ideally there needs to be more of a reason to actually want one in your party.

1 Like

Yeah it does make sense.

I think survival should be the sustained dps class, with the highest uptime…They would have to take a hit on burst dps, but excel in sustain.

In order for them to be invited they would need to be literal top dps on noneburst window high mobility raid fights, Like Hungering Destroyer for example, or stone legion… While they would not excel at something like Sludgefist or Sunking(where high burst windows are essential).

They would need to be tuned that way though, and they currently are not

They could buff the damage, make it busted OP and the best melee in the game, but then what? People will either flock to it and the only phys ranged class in the game is now a melee class, or people will still not play it because ranged is more useful in every way.

It’s gonna be hard to accept for some people but if you want to be a melee hunter this is probably how it will always be for you.

3 Likes

Survival Main since legion here:

I agree that we should have more melee options other than 2h. We, as hunters, can use many 1h weapons, but cannot use them with our abilities, which is annoying. I also think there should be more viable options for certain talent levels. For example, mongoose bite is about the only talent you can take in that row to do significant DPS.

That being said, I love my spec, and I don’t think it should be completely revamped. We survival hunters are used to getting flak for being “melee as a ranged class” but I’ve always loved it.

To me, this spec is about being adaptable and reacting to your situations, with a decent amount of randomization. With wildfire infusion, you have to adapt to whatever bomb you get (random). You also have that adaptability where you have a good mix of melee and ranged abilities, in addition to things like Aspect of the Eagle for a short burst of ranged in a pinch, allowing you to adapt to your situation.