That is why I was thinking that having spec built from a talent tree would allow players to creat a melee BM or even RSV again.
Have three trees again that focus on Hunters main strengths, and we get our abilities from progressing through each tree. You use points to open each branch, and can mix abilities.
Then you could have BM with raptor strike, or MM can use KC, and even SV fully range again. They maybe a some redesign to abilities but would open up more play-styles.
You guys have to be reasonable this would just cause more problems than solving them.
Because youâre not being reasonable by trying to solve a problem with bringing back a complete spec. Half of RsV core is already being used by MsV which is reliability in traps and utility. The other half itâs core play style which is itâs sustained d.o.t spells and small windows of burst are there in another form the wildfire bomb, serpent sting, and kill command. With the window of burst damage being through wildfire bomb, and raptor strike/Mongoose bite when youâre engaged on a target.
instead of advocating for more focus on MsV by trying to turn what they have right now into something else, you guys should be trying to understand that using the other half of ranged survival core to supplement MM by giving it an opportunity for full mobility through choice would be more helpful overall than what youâre promoting.
Mop version of ranged survival had steady shot as a focus builder along side serpent sting. Mm had black Arrow in legion and would take less effort and resources to bring back Black Arrow and update it to make it work with the mechanics of MM and have damage similar to aimed shot. Youâre over exaggerating, the play styles will be different and slightly change the mechanics of mm.
If Blizzard were to update MM along the lines of what I typed the spec would improve vastly. For example of bringing barbed shot over from bm and having it replace rapid fire as talent with a stackable focus generator would give incentive to not go lone wolf with the extra damage through pet. Another example is having black Arrow as a talent that replaces aimed shot can work well with trick shots mechanics by spreading the dot and giving it a familiar feel to serpent spread.
Honestly it can work very well I just think you guys are blinded by so much hatred for melee youâre not seeking a proper path forward for everyone except for yourselves.
TLDR; As it stands in my previous post MMâs current problems are itâs lack of cc and mobility. What I proposed solves both of those problems by giving mm hunters more options for full mobility through choice of choosing their primary ability (aimed shot vs black Arrow). Similar to melee survivalâs choice raptor strike/mongoose bite/flanking strike.
What exact problems?
Iâm not entirely sure what you mean by this but like you said here yourself.
Yeah, I am trying to bring back a complete spec, because thatâs what the old RSV spec was.
The devs have already made someâŚless than optimalâŚtries to implement parts of RSV into MM through talents. They havenât even come close to giving us that proper feel.
That reliability on traps and utility is more focused on a general Class Fantasy rather than being specific to a single spec.
And just because a current spec has some particular utility or improvements to traps, doesnât mean that this is what should be, and nothing else.
You can pretty much apply these mechanical designs to a lot of specs in the game. But that does not mean that the core playstyle of the old RSV can be found anywhere else. Because it was about so much more than just some abilities/mechanical design.
I told you earlier, donât disregard/overlook the intended theme and the fantasy behind the design. It MATTERS to a lot of people.
Not what weâre trying to do at all.
If you think that the old RSV was played similarly to that of the new MSV, then I would urge you to take another look at them.
I get it. Youâre not happy with the current design of Marksmanship.
But I would once again urge you to not advocate for combining two halves of two different specs/playstyles/fantasies into one, just because of the above issues related to the current MM.
If you want to add stuff from RSV into MM, you would have to take other stuff away from MM to make room. As well as the opposite side. If you want to implement elements of RSV into MM, you have to forego some of them to leave room for certain things from current MM as well. Or we would essentially no longer have the fantasy/theme coming from MM.
What would this give us? Two different base core designs with no ability to embrace either of them/build on them. Or at least, a VERY limited ability to do so.
Iâve played more than enough RsV during Mop to know itâs core gameplay and mechanics. I just think you havenât played enough MM this expansion to understand my stance on the current topic and how it could Benefit more than you think.
No ones going to miss piercing shot and a talent like careful aim can be baked into aimed shot to make up for the lack of kill shot. Iâm not advocating for them to fully take away barbed shot from bm, I want them to spread its function out to other Specs.
Thereâs a disconnect between us because I care less for spec fantasy and more for functionality. One of bFaâs major problems is that class design is boring for the sake of spec fantasy.
No no, I get why youâre asking for such changes(improvements) to be made to MM. And yes, if youâre talking PvP here then I havenât played MM at all really. Only played it in leveling/open world context along with some dungeons. Same goes for MSV.
Most people who complain about MMs occasional or even general lack of utility and to a degree, even survivability, most are speaking from a PvP standpoint.
Those who engage in PvE and bring up problems regarding MM, tend to focus more on the staleness of the spec and itâs slower gameplay.
Not saying that this includes everyone ofc.
The thing is, there are many ways you could improve on MM, both in terms of utility and survivability as well as itâs general feel and even theme, without having to bring in a butchered down version of RSV.
Why?
Because, even if the above would solve your problems with MM, it wouldnât actually solve the issue at hand(in regards to this very topic and many others) where people bring up how they want the old RSV spec back.
They(most) arenât asking for âMM but with some RSV abilities available through talentsâ. Neither are they(most) saying that giving the current MSV spec the option to fully attack with all itâs abilities and auto attacks from range, that this would satisfy the continued requests for the old RSV spec.
Got that part.
And fair enough, that is what you prefer to focus on.
Iâm not agreeing with you on this.
Class Design, in my opinion, does not automatically become boring just because of an increased focus on Spec Fantasy over Class Fantasy.
You can get a general Class Fantasy and a large baseline toolkit that serves the whole class rather than just one spec, without having to sacrifice the feel of going deep into a particular theme/spec.
Sure, for some, a focus on spec fantasy/spec identities will make classes less interesting. But for many, I would argue itâs much more specific than that. And the specifics can also vary a lot from one player to another. Meaning, what talents or baseline functions they find boring/lacking etc.
Removing or replacing Aim Shot may get MM closer to RSV, yet it may also cause another LW issue. Were not having Aim Shot is a better option, or Blizzard over powers one to keep them in line.
It that one ability shows how distinc two play-styles can be. One a turrent and the others a moving shooter. Blizzard can not just throw a few abilities into one spec and call it a compromise.
they should just make mm betterâŚhave a class based around traps was pretty meh forever
Or they could just delete the melee spec that nobody plays and give us back a spec that was one of the most popular specs in the game until Blizzard inexplicably deleted it.
Despite melee survival being the highest DPS hunter spec for much of its existence, there are still 25 ranged hunters for every 1 melee hunter. Time to take the goshdarn hint, Blizzard.
Survival wasnât really based around traps at the time it was the most popular raiding spec. It was more of a DoT spec.
Probably more like 100 ranged hunters for every 1 melee. The amount of players who are melee Survival is such a tiny niche. I wish they would kill it off and bring ranged Survival back, but we both know they wont do that.
The best we can hope for is getting a 4th spec(like how Druidâs finally got a 4th so Feral and Guardian had their own). While its obvious they added Serpent Sting and Explosive Shot as MM talents to give the illusion of being able to maintain a semblance of the ranged SV style, they failed hardcore.
Truthfully though, I have no clue what they were smoking to even fathom the idea of âLets kill the most popular hunter spec, one of the most popular specs in the game, to make a spec that we know will have a very tiny niche group playing it because itâll be melee and hunters are about ranged and petsâ. Much less what they were on to actually implement it, but I digress.
I donât absolutely advocate removing stuff and in the case of melee SV, I wonât for it either since I know it does have its audience(despite me hating melee SV and I do personally think it should be removed due to such low popularity and representation across the board). However Blizzard definitely needs to bring ranged SV back, the way it was. Not some hollow shell like so many specs are currently.
Because again, I donât know what they were thinking when they killed the most popular spec and made it one of the least played specs in the game. That shouldâve thrown up so many red flags at their meetings and stuff. âBoys, we done goofedâ. Alas.
Edit: To be clear. My opinion of melee SV is that its boring, doesnât fit the class thematic of ranged w/pet, and doesnât do anything that other melee canât do better. I wonât advocate for its removal outright because I do know it has its audience, though I do wish it were removed(personally). If that makes sense.
Also edited some stuff for clarity.
Iâm basing it off warcraftlogs figures. Certainly the disparity would be greater if you took M+ and general world content into account where ranged is more superior. But even in raids, where survival has been the highest DPS hunter spec for much of its existence, only 4% of hunters are playing survival.
I donât think itâs impossible that they will revert survival back to range, but it would require them to admit that they were wrong, something nobody likes doing.
This.
It was designed with the theme of using explosives, poison and animal venom while also having some extra options to focus on trap enhancement.
Broke my fingers long ago, as I kept them crossed for the return of RSV.
Still keeping my hope up though!
And like you said, the 4th spec option, is the best one. For several reasons.
I wouldnât call what they did there a serious attempt. Barely one at all really.
Most likely because they really just wanted an easy way to give the class a bit more diversity. Adding a melee option, would do just that.
In short, they really just wanted to give the class a melee-spec.
Why they removed RSV to make room for it? Because they were of the mindset that we shouldnât have a 4th spec.
This being their big mistake.
Which is what Iâm hoping has changed going forward. That they realize their mistake and take the time to give us what we want.
Iâm not asking for them to apologize. That wouldnât solve the issue at hand.
Give me ranged SV as a 4th spec and I couldnât be happier!
Iâm quite curious for some specifics regarding this.
âAs it wasâŚâ When?
How should it be designed today? In order to fit the modern game.
While we mightâve liked past iterations of the spec from WotLK or Cata, or MoP/WoD. The fact is that neither of those versions can be brought back as they were. Because they wouldnât fit within the modern game.
I know that Iâve posted my suggestions before, but feel free to check them out(link below) and add your own thoughts in a reply on what you would like to see for the spec if it came back.
If you have any questions regarding the design suggestions, feel free to ask
Youâre diminishing the value of traps to mop survival. survival was split evenly between itâs mobility with dot damage from itâs shots and traps for utility to where having some one set off a frost trap would give you a free explosive shot. mop survivals Dots and being completely mobile were only half of itâs core.
It would have worked choosing piercing shot as a talent would have replaced aimed shot.
They failed because they tied down Mm to aimed shot making it unable to be fully mobile for the sake of fantasy when they shouldnât have.
If blizzard were to update piercing shot by having it replace aimed shot but keep itâs similar mechanics 2xStack and 15 second cool down that interacts with trick shots.
Youâd literally have that mobile ranger half of ranged survivalâs gameplay thatâs so dearly missed.
the thing about survival is that itâs just cool to have a melee spear using class as an option. which wouldnât be in the game otherwise.
if anything they should just give mm back viper shot to give us some DOT
And hereâs the problem.
Aimed Shot is core to MMâs identity. Itâs been quintessentially MM for literally every iteration of the spec to the point where it defines the spec.
There is a place in the class for a stationary, patient sniper spec. Getting that big Aimed Shot crit off is very satisfying and rewarding and it fits really well thematically. Thereâs also a place for a utilitarian DoT-based spec. They arenât the same thing and trying to force both of them in the same class just ends up with two incomplete, watered-down specs in one. Case in point: taking away Aimed Shot or making it optional. Itâs compromising MMâs identity for the sake of ranged SV.
Itâs just yet another compromise, another price to pay, and another blow to the ranged aspect of the class for the sake of melee SV. Melee SV is just not worth any of that. MM shouldnât have to suffer because of that mistake.
Sure you would. Arms Warrior. Or any 2H user, for that matter.
Donât fall in to the trap of associating certain specs with particular weapon types. SV today isnât even that rooted in spear-wielding and you can use other weapons like axes as well, as long as they are 2H. Hard-coding the weapon type in each spec was a Legion decision. A mistake, actually.
I assume you mean Serpent Sting here. Serpent Sting already exists as an MM talent. Even if it were ever worth taking it doesnât make MM into ranged SV. Just chucking one DoT in there is nowhere near enough. Ultimately they are different modes of damage and different identities. Thatâs why Affliction and Destruction are different specs, too.
well i meanâŚwe already have multiple classes with DOT specs too soâŚ
and also i think a pure DOT spec is kind of weird for an archer specâŚi dunno.
personally i think it would be cool if they made it kinda likeâŚa pseudo ranged class like huskar from dota 2âŚnow that would be neat.
thatâs my class fantasy for the class i guess.
to be fair there is also viper from dota 2 who is pure ranged poison based type classâŚsoâŚ
a huskar type hero just seems more unique and interesting WOW though since we already have multiple ranged DOT classes
As discussed earlier, a talent that shares the synergies and aspects with Aimed, but allowing movement, would be greatly beneficial.
Instant cast Explosive Shot as an option to replace Aimedâs (or even exist baseline with a synchronised CD to Aimed) stationary issues. Same CD, charges and synergies with Trick Shots, Careful Aim, Precise Shots etcâŚ
Throw in Black Arrow and youâre well on the way in creating a sub spec.
Thereâs a high change MSV will remain as it was very intentional in itâs creation. While I agree that 4th spec is a possible solution, I wouldnât consider the comparison to Druid with itâs pre-cata Feral to be solid, as it had very clear issues with multiple roles in the one spec.
That begs another question if what RSV would resemble in BFA. So many specs are a shadow of themselves from MoP/WoD.
This was contained in optional talent-choices.
Not something that the spec was based around. The core of the spec was based around DoTs and focus building/spending.
That mechanic was meant to further build on the coreâs basic design.
If by worked you mean ââadding options to make MM more mobileââ sure.
But it would still be catering to the fantasy of MM. Not to RSV.
What were after, is NOT just a playstyle where we can be mobile rangers.
The abilities and the overall design of RSV and how it catered towards itâs intended theme/fantasy. THAT, is what were after.
Piercing Shot has nothing to do with explosives/poison/animal venom. Nor with DoTs. Neither would your suggestion to add in Barbed Shot as a bleed.
Sure, it deals damage over time, but Barbed Shot is designed with the intention of strengthening your pet. Invoke itâs bloodlust and itâs primal instincts.
Agreed.
This.
The only thing that matters is if you can make the mechanical design fit the fantasy. Both of the spec and the class as a whole.
Keep in mind that ââDoTsââ are not the same as ââmagical debuffsââ. It literally means ââDamage-over-timeââ. Which is a mechanical design you can achieve in many ways.
Examples:
You can get it through using magic.
Through bleeds.
Through poisons.
Through animal venom.
Through fire.
(yes, there is fire in the game that does not come from magic. Explosive Shot was one example. Immolation Trap another)
Anyway, feel free to read my suggestions for a DoT-based hunter spec, and get back to me about whether it makes sense or not.
You can find them in part 2 of this post:
It had those issues yes.
But the actual problem wasnât that it contained multiple roles in one spec. Or well, that to. But the very base issue, was that it contained multiple playstyles/fantasies within one spec. Fantasies that did not mix very well. Fantasies that could not be fully fleshed out as long as they remained as they were.
This can be applied to the topic of combining MM with RSV as well. Very much so.
i mean, aff warlock and shadow priest mostly do DOT through shadow damage soâŚnot really seeing what point youâre trying to make.
itâs the same thing as say poison damage or something by the way
My point is that as long as you can design abilities for the spec which makes sense thematically, then ofc they can be DoTs.
Poison does not have to be created from magic.
You can literally go out in the world, find a poisonous plant where, if you digest one of itâs leaves/flowers, you die.
You can then grind those leaves/flowers down and mix them with water(or some other liquids). And voila! You have a liquid poison that is not based on using magic.
Dip an arrow or a bullet in said poison and you have a way to ââinjectââ that posion into an enemy.
In short, poison is not always the same thing as magic.