We need range Survival Hunters back

[Ogdenir-alleria (Ogdenir)]

Ion just had a disscussion about classes, and from the way it was worded could mean more changes are coming to hunters:

" They’ve talked a lot about class identity in the past, and they think that they’ve probably bolstered spec identity at the expense of class identity . They’ve probably gone too far away from that core choice on the character select screen, when a player decides if they want to be a hunter, mage or shaman. Ideally specialization should be just that, picking a facet that excites you the most and doubling down on that. For some classes right now, some specs are almost like an entirely different class, with entirely different abilities and a little bit of overlap. That is also something they’d like to pull back from. They want to go back to class identity as a foundation, potentially through taking some abilities that are now spec specific and spreading them back out even if they’re off role. There’s value in hybridity.

The way your class plays and feels is important; it’s the lens in which you view the World of Warcraft. It’s how you engage with your enemies and allies and interact with the world. If you don’t play a class that you feel is satisfying and doesn’t resonate, then it’s going to affect your enjoyment. It’s a top priority for Blizzard to fix. They thank everyone for the feedback and criticism."

What the future for hunters is anyones guess, but they said classic gave them some inspiration.

[Dipndotshot-tichondrius]

good points i guess my suggestion bunkers more on the wrath/mop version of survival. Also another good idea possibly how about instead of the cobra shot and an quick shot, we make barbed shot the main focus spender instead and have it similar to bm’s current barbed shot making it more of a pure d.o.t spec ?
way would also fit with your pet designs ?

[Dipndotshot-tichondrius]

i believe this ion had spent time lurking in some of the class threads, but overall it’s a good thing to see some one in blizzard notices. Also with the talk about pruning it’s possible to see the return of ranged survival in some form specifically through the melee survival talent tree with 2 new talent tiers (here’s hoping).

[Bepples-barthilas]

To be honest there’s not much new in what he said. He said as much in the January 2018 Q&A, and specifically namedropped Survival as an example of spec fantasy over class fantasy.

I really, really hate Hazzikostas. But he is 100% right here. If only he held those values going into Legion.

[Yura-area-52 (Yura)]

good news from Mr. Ion. looks like hunter might be back in 9.0. hope i see my fav spec return then i can play the game again.

[Bepples-barthilas]

Don’t get your hopes up. There’s a difference between saying they’res a problem and actually solving it. And it’s not like he is denouncing melee Hunters. He outlined a general problem of specs being effectively different classes. As per my last post, he’s pointed this out before in last year’s pre-beta Q&A. He named Survival as an example and said this was the primary motivation for making it have so much ranged capabilities in BFA. But he also went on record at one point saying they still think it’s awesome to have the option of a melee Hunter.

Of course, this is pretty inconsistent. Survival being melee is the root cause of its disconnection with the rest of the class. There’s no “right amount” of melee that solves that. Borrowing abilities from SV’s past (Serpent Sting) is not going to fix it. Borrowing abilities from other Hunter specs (Kill Command) won’t either.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

good points i guess my suggestion bunkers more on the mop version of survival.

I was fairly inactive during MoP. I pretty much stopped in the beginning of Dragon Soul and came back a few months prior to WoD. I’ve drawn inspiration from most iterrations tied to the different expansions we’ve had.
Although some more and some, a little less. I knew when I began compiling the spec that anything brought up from the past might had to be adjusted somewhat to better fit the current game/design.

Also another good idea possibly how about instead of the cobra shot and an quick shot, we make barbed shot the main focus spender instead and have it similar to bm’s current barbed shot making it more of a pure d.o.t spec ?

You might very well do that. Again, it’s all about what we prefer as individuals.

Though, Cobra Shot here would still be a focus builder that replaces Steady Shot. With my design, it would not really have any ties to Quick Shot or Dire Frenzy.

With my post on MMOC, I’ve gotten some replies from players thinking that the pet stuff makes it seem sort of like a BM spec. And it is true. Dire Frenzy used to be a main focus for BM.
Though with my version it would be quite different. Here it would be meant as a change of pace for those that do not like to use Quick Shot. And, the fact that the ability is tied to your pet would also be very helpful in order for your pet to hold threat on one or several enemies. Having talents that can be used in group content but essentially can fit in better for solo play.
I find this to be reasonable.
Most of us aren’t min-maxers(nor do we need to be), so we can choose whatever talents we want when playing.

Now speaking of BM. I think that bringing in Barbed Shot into any spec other than BM itself, could potentially have a negative impact on perception. But thats just from my point of view.

I really, really hate Hazzikostas. But he is 100% right here. If only he held those values going into Legion.

Well, I agree. I wanted RSV to get an update along with the other specs as well.

However, I think that getting into a rework of that past spec/playstyle now, with the base on which we stand(the current specs), can potentially be better for the end result as it highlights each spec’s identity and lets us build on that which does not exist within the 3 current specs.

While still allowing us to stick to what the core fantasy of being a hunter was about in the past.

He named Survival as an example and said this was the primary motivation for making it have so much ranged capabilities in BFA.

I really hope that their decision to add in the capability of using several abilities from afar, was NOT their way of giving us the feel of the old SV back. Because in that case, this was a poor job if you ask me. MSV plays nothing like the past RSV.

[Ragnoiros-sargeras]

He named Survival as an example and said this was the primary motivation for making it have so much ranged capabilities in BFA.

Which, whatever your personal preference is, doesn’t mean that Blizzard agreeing they went too far in specialization design over class design means that they will make improvements in 9.0.

Right now 1 through 10 is Cobra Shot and Concussive Shot only. At level 10 it completely flips design toward 3 drastically different specializations that really don’t share anything in common in terms of abilities or mechanics that make them feel like the same class.

Changing this requires a redesign of all 3 specializations to be closer to WoLK-WoD design when they actually felt like part of a class instead of 3 mini-classes.

[Bloodyrend-echo-isles]

back in classic/vanilla you had 3 spec trees but no real specs for example when you gained new abilities you learned from all 3 of the spec types. and with plenty of melee abilities in general, hunters can choose to be melee or ranged in vanilla or in retail by choosing survival, bm or mm. this strikes a balance because to me having a pet and a polearm isnt a bad compromise.

[Dipndotshot-tichondrius]

3 melee abilities- wing clip, raptor strike, and mongoose bite
2 talent choice melee ability- counter strike which required a parry and lacerate which was removed to favor more cc dot Wyvern sting.

Going melee wasn’t the best choice for marks, and survival hunters in vanilla. sure you could do it but it wouldn’t be optimal and would take the best gear to be some what functional. Also you would get more damage out of melee hunter if you’d spec primarly bm for improving aspects and Bw and taking the little left overs for deterrence in survival.

The vanilla/classic hunter had 3 facets to it which was
Pets & aspects(Bm)/Ranged & Shot’s (MM)/ Traps & Control (Surv)
Survival was more about control and kiting because your primary source of damage came from your ranged abilities.

I mean sure you could understand why there’s dissent to the point where People are arguing that Bm should have been melee. Personally I like to stick to my guns and still believe that the melee hunter should have been B.M and that all talent tree’s leading up to Wotlk & even Cata supports that. Seeing that the only way to be a functional melee hunter would be through the BM tree mainly.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

And it’s not like he is denouncing melee Hunters.

There isn’t really any point to ask for this. Melee survival is here to stay. Besides, there is no need for that to happen really.
We can get what we want without removing/altering any of the existing specs.

The fact that MSV, while it’s intended to be a melee spec, it still holds many abilities that can be used even when you’re away from the target.
This isn’t really a bad thing. This is the primary thing that makes the spec stand out amongst other melee specs.
So does having a pet, though fighting with a companion by your side isn’t exactly unique.

Why they decided to ‘‘borrow’’ certain abilities from other specs like BM, I don’t know. You could’ve made Raptor Strike do pretty much what KC does for MSV to then also let either Mongoose Bite or Flanking Strike be the baseline main spender. As both are now talent choices. IMO.

Right now 1 through 10 is Cobra Shot and Concussive Shot only. At level 10 it completely flips design toward 3 drastically different specializations that really don’t share anything in common in terms of abilities or mechanics that make them feel like the same class.

I agree that the transition from sub 10 to 10+ needs to make more sense. Now, all specs don’t have to have the same abilities to then move away from it later. What I think is needed, is a way for these transitions to make sense, gameplay-wise.

As in, when you hit level 10, you unlock actual questchains that you can do.
Each questchain contains enough quests to cover all the core mechanics/abilities(for each spec), and explains why you are ‘‘learning’’ them.

Example:
BM learns about proper pet management(Kill Command), you have a few quests that teaches you how you inspire your pet(Barbed Shot+Bestial Wrath) to be more ferocious.

And the same could be done for the other specs.
Again, this is about the fantasy with each spec, and how it fits together. To me, hitting 10 and suddenly you can just do a lot of new things without any basis, this does not feel very good.

Changing this requires a redesign of all 3 specializations to be closer to WoLK-WoD design when they actually felt like part of a class instead of 3 mini-classes.

We all have our preferences. I honestly believe that each spec has so much more potential now, to feel really good. This ofc requires proper follow-through in development and design, and we’re not there yet if you ask me.

[Ragnoiros-sargeras]

This ofc requires proper follow-through in development and design, and we’re not there yet if you ask me.

Legion Survival was clearly the implementation of 3 different themes smashed together at the last minute which created a lot of the mess with the rotation: Melee, Pet, and Traps. At the core it was a pretty decent melee specialization that felt very rewarding to play, particularly while leveling and before getting to the “spinning plates” end game rotation. It also had very pleasing melee attack animations.

BFA Survival drops nearly all of the satisfying melee animations and feel for a bunch of hybrid gimmicks with objectively stupid animations in a melee BM package. In short it dropped most of the best of Legion Survival to attempt to appeal to Ranged Hunters and keep melee relevant.

Beast Mastery still makes the absolute best case for a melee hunter given that fighting side by side while buffing your pet makes way more thematic sense than sending your pet in while flinging bombs and poison darts (from either range or melee).

Melee Survival still fails to grasp a large core audience because there are 13 other melee DPS and 6 melee tank fantasies. However, there are only 2 ranged weapon fantasies. One of those has pretty crappy game play. The other has less crappy game play but uses a Daisy single cocking BB gun for it’s ranged weapon.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

Legion Survival was clearly the implementation of 3 different themes smashed together at the last minute which created a lot of the mess with the rotation: Melee, Pet, and Traps. At the core it was a pretty decent melee specialization that felt very rewarding to play, particularly while leveling and before getting to the “spinning plates” end game rotation. It also had very pleasing melee attack animations.

Agreed, though as I’m not a fan of melee combat I only really tried Legion SV during the Beta. Also looked at it during the BfA Alpha/Beta.
But I’m not going to play the current SV as I prefer ranged combat.

BFA Survival drops nearly all of the satisfying melee animations and feel for a bunch of hybrid gimmicks with objectively stupid animations in a melee BM package. In short it dropped most of the best of Legion Survival to attempt to appeal to Ranged Hunters and keep melee relevant.

Yeah, very much agree on this. If they wanted to make it melee-focused. Then actually stick with that theme. As you said, they went back on that and instead gave it a sort of mish-mash of reworked abilities from BM/RSV.
Now, I know that some hunters who liked the old ranged SV, like the current melee version as well as there are elements that have inspiration from, Explosive Shot, you have Serpent Sting as well, and ofc the pet gameplay and traps.

But considering how the spec actually plays. Like I said above, it’s nowhere near the gameplay-style of what RSV was between Cata-WoD. Some like it and there’s nothing wrong with that. We are different.

Beast Mastery still makes the absolute best case for a melee hunter given that fighting side by side while buffing your pet makes way more thematic sense than sending your pet in while flinging bombs and poison darts (from either range or melee).

I always imagined BM to be closer to what it was in Legion compared to what it is now. I liked that you could choose between empowering your main pet. Or you could lean more towards calling for additional wild beasts to help you. While still you yourself staying at range.

I would prefer if current Survival would go back towards a stronger melee focus rather than being this combo-hybrid. Where you actually focus more on attacking with your weapon, focus on savage strikes, bleeds, etc. As well as some pet interaction.

Like I said above:
Remove Kill Command for Survival. Put in Raptor Strike in it’s place to be a builder. It can essentially work like KC does for Surv.
You then take out either the current version of Mongoose Bite or a slightly reworked version of Flanking Strike and let either be the main spender/damage source.
Doesn’t really need to be much more than that(IMO ofc.) Other opinions might vary…

If we go back to the topic of this thread. Despite keeping the current 3 specs as they are, and what their intended fantasy is. You can still give us a ranged Survival spec that has a unique focus/identity from the other 3 specs. My spec design suggestion, as I’ve said before, keeps some sense of pet dependency and optional ways for you to further interact with your pet.

Why? Because for one, it can be a QoL thing in some situations.
Second, playing with a pet, relying on a pet has for the bigger part of this games history, been at the center of our fantasy as Hunters.
For those that hate to play with/rely on pets, we have a ranger-style spec option.

[Bepples-barthilas]

back in classic/vanilla you had 3 spec trees but no real specs for example when you gained new abilities you learned from all 3 of the spec types. and with plenty of melee abilities in general, hunters can choose to be melee or ranged in vanilla or in retail by choosing survival, bm or mm. this strikes a balance because to me having a pet and a polearm isnt a bad compromise.

Uh, no, you could not choose to be melee in Vanilla. It was an utterly unviable playstyle. All 3 specs had and preferred ranged abilities. That’s a far cry from today’s Survival which is dependent on melee range.

[Nitek-korgath]

You just need to believe hard enough. I’ve played since vanilla, but since they got rid of mop/wod survival I can’t play this entire class anymore, BM with the GCD changes is awful, and marks… and surv is just a bad melee class.

[Yura-area-52 (Yura)]

You just need to believe hard enough. I’ve played since vanilla, but since they got rid of mop/wod survival I can’t play this entire class anymore, BM with the GCD changes is awful, and marks… and surv is just a bad melee class.

same. it’s time for the hunter CLASS to return. no more of this chopped up garbage we’ve had since legion.

hunter = archer + pet

[Inkarran-area-52]

I can’t like your post enough lol

[Entrerri-proudmoore]

Funnily enough, my melee surv hunters fires poison darts out of a crossbow. Hunter = archer + pet. Melee surv fits even your definition. Sweet irony.

[Kindwolf-emerald-dream]

Can’t wait to stab some Horde with my spear later. MSV greatest SV.

[Ruddypiper-sargeras (Ruddypiper)]

Funnily enough, my melee surv hunters fires poison darts out of a crossbow.

Which he pulls out of his rear. Such immersion!