I said it as the best possible chance to get RSV back. Hold them to their promise and keep at it until we get the separation.
It’s the best chance of getting it that we currently have. I’ll read your thread once I get some time. I stopped reading the EU forums a while back, I should go back to doing it.
Another idea from MMOC:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2490341-Pre-Legion-Survival-Spec-Fantasy
F Rm - this is NOT meant to be a “Hey, let’s remove melee survival in favor of this”-thread. I’m very aware that there are people who like the melee-spec we got with Legion very much. And I agree, you should not remove it. This post was intended to be the “what if we could get it back in as a 4th spec”-thread.
For anyone who wants to, you will find my thought process for why I have chosen the design and the abilities/effects as well as talents that I did. You will find this in the comment/reply section below.
One thing about this: the old Lock n Load procs effectively gave you three Explosive Shots, while in this post it only gives you one. The thing where you wanted to cast a spell between every Explosive Shot cast to not clip the DoT was pretty integral to Survival gameplay IMO
Let’s take a min and think about things another way.
Is there a major weakness that another ranged spec could fulfill?
If we look at pvp and multi-dot/spread aoe/cleave raid encounters I would say yes. Range SV had the best traps and was extremely good at kiting and consistent damage. We also lost sidewinder in legion that was good for spread aoe/cleave. They could possibly fix this with a revamp of MM but they seem hooked on very slow and immobile gameplay, which is the opposite of what you would want with a petless spec but whatever. BM is too centralized on your pet, so it wouldn’t work for this.
Is there a lack of choice for archer themed gameplay?
Obviously. If you want to be a knight with a sword you have: tank warrior, 2h warrior, dw warrior, dead tank warrior, dead warrior with pet, dead dw warrior, holy tank warrior, healing warrior, holy 2h warrior. When you create a char and look at your choice for archer, you only have Hunter, and now only have 2 options: Mobile hunter that’s brought down by pet reliance, or immobile hunter that has boring slow gameplay.
So there’s a niche another spec could fulfill and a lack of archer-themed gameplay. I don’t think a 4th spec would be redundant. There’s also the possibility they add a Dark Ranger hero class and this could be fulfilled there.
Either way, saying that a 4th spec is not necessary is false.
Dude I love you for this. Very well put.
Fair enough, may very well be that chance. Who knows.
Though I would personally prefer it if it would take them a little longer to give it back to us, and when/if they finally do that, it would be as a 4th option.
To see a re-implementation of a spec(or see a new spec), this will never happen in the middle of an expansion. If we see this sometime in the future, it would in that case happen when we transition between expansions.
Basically, we have 2 realistic options here(if you don’t count the one where they just ignore the demand for this spec to make it’s return, which again, if you ask me, would be a mistake).
1: They decide to give it back to us as a sub-spec, through talent choices in the MM spec. This would be the easier option, though we would not see this until the next expansion anyway.
2: They actually go with the option to, like they did with druids, add a 4th spec to fully allow proper depth to be added to the spec.
This is ofc the option that will take the most time/work to complete. But, if they have already started working on it, or if they start doing so around the stage were in now, they will have more than enough time to have it ready for the next expansion.
A bonus here is that, like it has been said before, the 4th spec route allows us to keep the 3 current specs intact(as in, the RSV would not really affect them and how they are designed).
Cheers mate! Although, I have a copy of that thread on this hunter forum as well. It’s essentially the same post(the suggestions). I added in some more motivation in the one below. [Suggestions updated] Pre-Legion/Ranged Survival
Don’t hesitate to leave feedback if you have some! 
I’ve had that design up for a while on various platforms to see what feedback I can get. And so far, people seem to like it. Only negative really that I’ve seen is the part within the talent section that involves your pet. Which I have since altered to be more about what your pet can do for you as the hunter rather than the opposite.
For anyone interested, here is my motivation as to why pet involvement in this spec should not be removed completely(and still, be entirely optional).
Full disclosure, that’s my post on the MMOC 
I decided to post it on multiple platforms/forums due to the fact that many individuals don’t really visit more than one, or a few. Some, don’t really check the official WoW forums while still visiting for example MMOC. And vice versa.
That thread has generated a lot of interesting points as well as feedback.
That first bold segment is an edit by me to highlight the fact that I don’t want to remove MSV in favor of RSV. I did this as there were several replies where they simply dismissed the suggestions because they did not want MSV to be removed.
Which, despite it not being the goal, is something I very much understand. If you like a spec, obviously you would not want it to be removed/deleted(…hint).
Interesting point Zalgo. I did consider to include that original design as, like you said, it was very fun when those procs occurred.
In the end, I chose to go in the direction that I did as it allowed for more baseline player oriented choices to be made. You had more baseline control on how you wanted to set everything up.
The original design was, you had Explosive Shot with a 6 sec CD. That was it really unless you got those L&L procs.
New design, Explosive Shot in itself works the same, although you have 2 charges baseline and a 10 second CD up from 6. And you also have the ability to, on demand, add in another charge through the activation of Rapid Fire(major CD). As well as the chance to gain additional free charges through L&L.
How big would that proc chance be? No idea really as it most likely would require some testing to see what feels right.
Preach! 
Just going to build on what Yura is saying.
Survival got changed because Hunter was deemed too similar and Survival supposedly lacked a clear theme. Survival Legion didn’t get a clear theme as it threw together melee, pets, and traps in a haphazard fashion stitched together at the last moment. Survival BFA didn’t get a clear theme again because it became melee Beast Mastery “with tinkers”.
Of course, this also stems from taking unified classes with specializations and in some cases, like Survival, moving too far away from the Class theme with over emphasis on the specialization. Compounded in the Hunter class with clearly having no clear vision for the Class while also giving zero thought to it’s popularity.
Going back to themes and choices. Marksmanship has historically been the least mobile, slowest paced, and least active/reactive Hunter and has historically been the least popular Hunter except when talents, spell changes, and/or set bonuses changed that. Beast Mastery has always been highly popular because it’s a mobile spec that is great for solo content and can collect the widest range of pets. Survival was right in the middle of the two fantasies being highly mobile, fast paced and reactive, with strategic use of a pet rather than DPS reliance on a pet with more player damage and more impactful player damage.
As a 2 spec Archer class we now have these options:
A pet buff bot that has ZERO impactful ranged attacks. You get a lot of damage over the course of a long fight via hundreds of Auto-Shots, Cobra Shots, and Barbed Shot casts. But none of those feel good to use on their own and particularly in shorter combat. It has exactly 1 ranged talent option that does hit harder but needs 2 targets to deal maximum damage.
A very slow paced spec focused around planting and casting long cast Aimed Shots with all the mechanics centered around these slow immobile casts. And with lots of “conditional” requirements. At best, it is very annoying in group content, okay in solo content, and good for stealth openers in chaotic PvP.
There is nothing that bridges the gap between those 2 extremes. We’ve also lost that Class overlap that gave Beast Mastery more Ranged attacks.
In Cataclysm you had: Kill Shot, Serpent Sting, Arcane Shot, Cobra Shot along with the push-pull pet synergy of Frenzy/Focus Fire and Cobra Strikes/Invigoration where the Hunter and Pet were equal partners working in tandem and supporting each other rather than the current iteration of “token ranged” while buffing and commanding a pet. (This was also fairly close to WoLK Beast Mastery.)
In Mists of Pandaria you had all of the same plus the talent choice between Powershot, Barrage, and Glaive Toss.
So prior to Legion not only did you have a much wider range of player based ranged attacks, but you also had more hard hitting ranged attacks and thus more player damage to buff and utilize within Bestial Wrath windows.
Playing live MM feels like being stuck in Tar Traps and Binding Shots. Playing BM on live feels like being at a retriever or pointer competition blowing whistles and issuing commands.
I always thought old Survival had a pretty clear theme- sort of like an Enhancement Shaman is to an Arms Warrior. While Marksman pulls off crazy skillful shots, Survival used enhanced ammo (poisonous arrows through Cobra Shot, Serpent Sting and Spread, magical arrows through Black Arrow and Arcane Shot, fire arrows with Explosive Shot) to kill things without being as careful or precise as, well, a Marksman.
Nowadays Survival doesn’t have as clear of a theme to me- it’s a melee fighter (RS, Carve, WC) with tinker elements (WFB, SS, Steel Trap) that don’t make any sense being in melee (blowing up bombs in your face and quickly swapping your polearm for a tiny crossbow?), that also commands a pet as masterfully as BM (KC, CA, SB, FS)?
RSV didn’t fit the name after Vanilla really. It had a great thematic theme, DOT Based Utility (CC and a buff in BC) but it wasn’t a Survival spec anymore, and that is not a nock on the Spec either.
Think guerrilla soldier with a pet at your side. Yes it’s more of a Beast Master than BM is, but you are using gadgets and poisons to aid you and your Pet (read Partner) in battling your foe. It’s more of a Survivalist in the purest sense than it has been in years.
I can agree with that- Survival as a name didn’t fit the spec at all, and while I don’t think it fits the spec as it is either it’s definitely better than before. Another reason to bring it back as a fourth spec (if it does come back, that is) I suppose.
They could rip off Final Fantasy 8 and make Survival use a gunblade. If not Survival, they could rip off ff8 and give a class a gun blade just because.
Yeah, this still baffles me. I mean, it’s not like either of the other specs had that strong DoT-focus.
Besides, the worst part of it all really was that it wasn’t going to matter going forward anyway. As neither of the specs were going to stick to their design. They were all going through drastic changes.
Yep. That’s what I thought as well. Except that Black Arrow, while it caused shadow damage, it wasn’t actually meant to be a “magical” arrow, but rather another type of poison of your own making.
As for Arcane Shot, I never liked that it did Arcane damage. IMO the only class that should have access to Arcane damage is the Mage.
That’s IMO because they went away from the original spec design we had in Vanilla. In Vanilla, your talent trees weren’t meant to assign you to a particular “spec” or a specific playstyle. No matter what you picked in terms of talents, you were a hunter. The talents only served to enhance certain elements within the class you were playing.
Nothing here is meant to criticize what we had back in the day. It’s purely here to highlight how different the class was back then compared to how it is now.
Beast Mastery:
Marksmanship
Survival
Back then, no matter what you spec’ed in/for, you were still a hunter that wanted to engage in ranged combat and you were aided by a pet/companion.
If you mean that it(name wise) did not fit the DoT-spec we got with Cata. I can agree. And like you say, it doesn’t fit particularly well with the current MSV either. Although, perhaps marginally better.
I wouldn’t actually mind calling a potential 4th spec(in the style of the old RSV), I wouldn’t mind giving it the name “Tracker”.
A strong focus on the use of traps, both improving those you use offensively as well as in a defensive way. Also having a deep understanding for the nature/the wild. Knowing how to make the most of it to better suit your needs.
Knowing what you can use from either animals or flora to gain an advantage over any potential foes. I’d say this fits pretty well in with the definition of what a Tracker was(if you refer to real life ones).
I see this a lot and idk if I agree. I think being highly mobile and having improved traps that made it a great kiter fits perfectly with the name Survival. Or in terms of being a “survivalist”, augmenting arrows with different elements like venom or fire fits pretty well with the idea of using resources from the wild. Atleast this was always my idea of what the spec fantasy was.
I also see a lot of people say something like “it should be a tank it’s name is survival”. Most tank specs use names that suggest they would be at the front of battle, Protection, Guardian, Vengeance, etc. And generally, if you are trying to survive you wouldn’t plunge into everything headfirst. This is also why I think melee doesn’t really fit the name either.
They actually removed the dot clipping somewhere in there, but the shot weaving went es, es, as, es. Otherwise you would lose a tick of explosive shot. Think they fixed it in mop though
Survivalist, think more ranger, uses what’s around him, makes traps, arrows, armor, friends with animals. The old theme worked well at first, we originally had a couple melee moves (raptor strike gave dmg reduction, wing clip was slow, stuff like that) then we made traps, poisoned arrows. It worked well, so yeah, just depends on your frame of mind.
Survival turning into what it did in Cata, MoP, and WoD isn’t a deviation from the pre-WotLK design. It’s really just the natural result of looking at a spec that doesn’t really have anything going for it in terms of being an independent damage-dealing spec and deciding how to make it so. It already had a utilitarian theme so why not derive a damage-dealing archetype from that by looking towards buffing their arrows/bullets?
All good points really. And like it has been said, it’s very much about what we imagine it to be.
Can agree on this. Considering the route they took when making all specs more independent and adding unique playstyles/fantasies to each. This kinda had to be the case really.
As if compared to the class/specs in the earlier days where each just focused on different aspects within the same class. Back then you couldn’t be the ‘‘survivalist’’, as in you couldn’t specifically opt into a unique style that you wouldn’t otherwise have access to.
And no matter really at this point. I doubt they will go for a name change for the current MSV just to pass the name to a potential 4th spec.
We, most likely, have to look for a new one.
My first thoughts went towards
1: Tracker(it just fits with the proposed style/design).
2: Trapper(might not be the best fit, depends on the potential design).
Although, I’m open to other ideas ![:slight_smile:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
Our old frost trap and imolation trap were fun with ranged survival.
Frost trap was a bit, op I guess, with a glyph it would give you crit chance to enemies affect(including bosses and mobs, players, whatever, increased movement speed across it and decrease enemies speed) while overpowered, it gave a reason for the hunter to use traps.
A lot of people didn’t like that it tied our utility to our dmg though. Hunters have always had to deal with that, easy to play but hard to master, playstyle.
The imolation trap scaled with our mastery to apply a long dot. But it got nerfed fairly often after they started playing with LNL.
I will say, right before mop dropped, end of cata, they had our rotation down pat, separated from our traps some but our traps could still increase our dmg in specific instances, and kept useful through the death of garrosh when we used explosive trap or power shot to wipe out his adds
Idd
The idea of enhanced traps was one of the aspects of RSV that i liked the most.
My proposed design for an updated RSV sought to bring that back. Where you would now have traps used both for damage as well as the regular ones like Freezing + Tar trap.
One of the suggestions in my design that I find the most interesting, in terms of the improved traps aspect, is the talent Resourcefulness combined with the passive Enhanced Traps effect for your Freezing Trap.
Now, the talent wouldn’t exactly turn your Freezing Trap into an immunity, but it would certainly have it’s use. Both in PvE as well as PvP.
It would be particularly fun if the protective ice block you can put up, you could choose to help an ally instead of using it for yourself.
For PvP, i would say that abilities such as Charge, Leaps, Shockwaves and more would instantly shatter the Ice Block, while
pure damage would take a little longer to do so.
For PvE, whenever you need to CC, you could do so, but when that’s not needed you could use it to empower(and protect) yourself, or to help an ally out.
It’s a niche that, afaik, does not exist in WoW. Something very fitting to the hunter class if you ask me.
(Not to mention that it would make us much more of an attractive choice for group based content).
Have some sort of castable immune might be fun. But an ice block like that would be pulling a littttttle heavy from mages pool. Think they would freak lol