You’re diminishing the value of traps to mop survival. survival was split evenly between it’s mobility with dot damage from it’s shots and traps for utility to where having some one set off a frost trap would give you a free explosive shot. mop survivals Dots and being completely mobile were only half of it’s core.
It would have worked choosing piercing shot as a talent would have replaced aimed shot.
They failed because they tied down Mm to aimed shot making it unable to be fully mobile for the sake of fantasy when they shouldn’t have.
If blizzard were to update piercing shot by having it replace aimed shot but keep it’s similar mechanics 2xStack and 15 second cool down that interacts with trick shots.
You’d literally have that mobile ranger half of ranged survival’s gameplay that’s so dearly missed.
Aimed Shot is core to MM’s identity. It’s been quintessentially MM for literally every iteration of the spec to the point where it defines the spec.
There is a place in the class for a stationary, patient sniper spec. Getting that big Aimed Shot crit off is very satisfying and rewarding and it fits really well thematically. There’s also a place for a utilitarian DoT-based spec. They aren’t the same thing and trying to force both of them in the same class just ends up with two incomplete, watered-down specs in one. Case in point: taking away Aimed Shot or making it optional. It’s compromising MM’s identity for the sake of ranged SV.
It’s just yet another compromise, another price to pay, and another blow to the ranged aspect of the class for the sake of melee SV. Melee SV is just not worth any of that. MM shouldn’t have to suffer because of that mistake.
Sure you would. Arms Warrior. Or any 2H user, for that matter.
Don’t fall in to the trap of associating certain specs with particular weapon types. SV today isn’t even that rooted in spear-wielding and you can use other weapons like axes as well, as long as they are 2H. Hard-coding the weapon type in each spec was a Legion decision. A mistake, actually.
I assume you mean Serpent Sting here. Serpent Sting already exists as an MM talent. Even if it were ever worth taking it doesn’t make MM into ranged SV. Just chucking one DoT in there is nowhere near enough. Ultimately they are different modes of damage and different identities. That’s why Affliction and Destruction are different specs, too.
As discussed earlier, a talent that shares the synergies and aspects with Aimed, but allowing movement, would be greatly beneficial.
Instant cast Explosive Shot as an option to replace Aimed’s (or even exist baseline with a synchronised CD to Aimed) stationary issues. Same CD, charges and synergies with Trick Shots, Careful Aim, Precise Shots etc…
Throw in Black Arrow and you’re well on the way in creating a sub spec.
There’s a high change MSV will remain as it was very intentional in it’s creation. While I agree that 4th spec is a possible solution, I wouldn’t consider the comparison to Druid with it’s pre-cata Feral to be solid, as it had very clear issues with multiple roles in the one spec.
That begs another question if what RSV would resemble in BFA. So many specs are a shadow of themselves from MoP/WoD.
Not something that the spec was based around. The core of the spec was based around DoTs and focus building/spending.
That mechanic was meant to further build on the core’s basic design.
If by worked you mean ‘‘adding options to make MM more mobile’’ sure.
But it would still be catering to the fantasy of MM. Not to RSV.
What were after, is NOT just a playstyle where we can be mobile rangers.
The abilities and the overall design of RSV and how it catered towards it’s intended theme/fantasy. THAT, is what were after.
Piercing Shot has nothing to do with explosives/poison/animal venom. Nor with DoTs. Neither would your suggestion to add in Barbed Shot as a bleed.
Sure, it deals damage over time, but Barbed Shot is designed with the intention of strengthening your pet. Invoke it’s bloodlust and it’s primal instincts.
Agreed.
This.
The only thing that matters is if you can make the mechanical design fit the fantasy. Both of the spec and the class as a whole.
Keep in mind that ‘‘DoTs’’ are not the same as ‘‘magical debuffs’’. It literally means ‘‘Damage-over-time’’. Which is a mechanical design you can achieve in many ways.
Examples:
You can get it through using magic.
Through bleeds.
Through poisons.
Through animal venom.
Through fire.
(yes, there is fire in the game that does not come from magic. Explosive Shot was one example. Immolation Trap another)
Anyway, feel free to read my suggestions for a DoT-based hunter spec, and get back to me about whether it makes sense or not.
You can find them in part 2 of this post:
It had those issues yes.
But the actual problem wasn’t that it contained multiple roles in one spec. Or well, that to. But the very base issue, was that it contained multiple playstyles/fantasies within one spec. Fantasies that did not mix very well. Fantasies that could not be fully fleshed out as long as they remained as they were.
This can be applied to the topic of combining MM with RSV as well. Very much so.
My point is that as long as you can design abilities for the spec which makes sense thematically, then ofc they can be DoTs.
Poison does not have to be created from magic.
You can literally go out in the world, find a poisonous plant where, if you digest one of it’s leaves/flowers, you die.
You can then grind those leaves/flowers down and mix them with water(or some other liquids). And voila! You have a liquid poison that is not based on using magic.
Dip an arrow or a bullet in said poison and you have a way to ‘‘inject’’ that posion into an enemy.
In short, poison is not always the same thing as magic.
And we have even more physical melee weapon specs.
There are a lot of specs and only so many modes of damage.
I think it would fit an archer spec really well. Poisoned arrows are something you see both in real life and in pretty much any RPG that has archers at all, as is the concept of arrows/bullets buffed by magical effects. Look to Final Fantasy 14: their archer class, the Bard, is centred around high mobility and DoT/magic effects that tie into the single target damage.
If they apparently can’t maintain 3 different ranged weapons specs there is no way they will make a new ranged weapon class. They are too set in their ways, which is making new melee spec after new melee spec.
I could be wrong and I hope to be, but I would also hate for the only option for the ranged SV playstyle and identity to end up in a different class. This is my Hunter toon, it was the one on which I played ranged Survival and I would hope to again be able to play ranged Survival on this character one day.
It doesn’t even need to be a talent.
In WoD our Sniper Training mastery existed as a buff that was only permanent as long as we stood still; as soon as we moved it fell off after ~5 seconds and would only reapply after standing still for ~3 seconds (don’t remember the exact values). Meanwhile Aimed Shot was a mobile cast. This was a really good mobility compromise.
This would be a really cheap, budget version of what ranged SV was and could be.
Notice how none of us are advocating for a 1:1 remake of MoP/WoD SV. Look at Ghorak’s suggestions. What should happen is an evolution on the foundation of ranged Survival. For example, for a DoT-based spec, SV lacked any real incentive to multidot beyond using Multi-Shot to spread Serpent Sting to clumped targets. There was a lot of potential in Black Arrow with its Lock and Load interaction; if we could multidot with it our single target damage would scale up. This was something that was tried a couple times but they never committed to it. This sort of interaction can’t really be duct-taped together with MM talents.
It goes back to what I said earlier; ultimately you would just end up with 2 watered-down specs in one: the sniper archetype and the munitions expert archetype.
I would imagine that a casted focus generator would be gone entirely. They might go with what Legion and BFA did for Survival focus generation: a short cooldown instant that gives focus, given that “focus over time” is already used by BM with Barbed Shot and “fully active casted focus generation” is owned by MM… I don’t know what ability they would go with for that; they would probably have to make a new one. I think they would have definitely avoided Cobra Shot and Steady Shot entirely as those are already used by other specs. The often-forgotten Viper Venom passive could have been expanded (Serpent Sting ticks giving Focus) at least in multi-dotting situations.
Lock and Load charges would become the major resource of the spec, alongside Focus. In early WoD beta they experimented with a system where Lock and Load procs were more frequent and gave 1 charge at a time, and they made Explosive Shot incur no cooldown just like the old charges but the ES was no longer free. This effectively turned ES into the main focus dump of the spec, removing the need for Arcane Shot. It also allowed charges to be built up for burst damage. They cancelled this (likely because they determined the spec wouldn’t last beyond WoD anyway) but in an alternate universe this would probably be the future of Survival.
Arcane Shot would be gone, again as MM would own it. They could have possibly gone with Serpent Sting as an active ability again (like today) with higher initial damage to make it a good focus filler between Lock and Load procs.
Black Arrow would have some sort of multidotting functionality, probably via CDR. The Archimonde trinket in WoD made Black Arrow have a high chance to reset CD when using Cobra Shot/Arcane Shot. Effects being seen on items/sets first and then later on the baseline class is something the game has seen before many times, including with Survival itself; Expose Weakness was a tier set bonus from Vanilla before becoming a Survival talent in BC/WotLK. Some sort of Black Arrow CDR would be tied into the base spec. I’m not sure if it would be a total CD reset as it would resemble Wild Command from BM but it could have been something like a few seconds taken off for each Serpent Sting tick.
So the core of the spec would be Explosive Shot, Serpent Sting, and Black Arrow at this point. They would probably add something else, such as Wildfire Bomb. They could also have tried (and failed) to incorporate trapping into the core gameplay. But Legion demonstrated people really don’t like that.
They would also have some sort of spec-specific CD, but I can’t imagine what they would have gone with. In WoD they were going to make one but just like the LnL change it got cancelled. It was going to be “Bear Trap”, but let’s be honest: that sounds pretty crap and is again tying the spec’s core damage priority to a trap.
No talent needed at all, as it could exist beside Aimed Shot, similar to how Arcane shares its CD with Aimed in classic, to avoid confusion on intended use.
This would be greatly beneficial to MM without even considering the SV fantasy. If we’re not doing that, then Barbed Shot, or anything. Just allow MM it’s instant cast shot that mirrors Aimed’s role in the MM kit.
But as you mention the WoD Mastery, I think that’s also something that should be considered, that could very well be an alternative to the above.
I mention here as a possibility to rectify MM issues (mostly on PvP), while also considering a merging of playstyles, or if preferred, an option between them.
And that is a possibility. Especially with the general sub par design we received in BFA.
What if they got it right?
Allowing MM to have it’s fantasy, while also allowing a fantasy for those missing older Surv designs.
We have an intended melee spec that has taken the place of old Surv. Much as we’d love it, wouldn’t be the same spec we enjoyed in MoP/WoD.
So unfortunately, we just can’t expect MSV to compete with RSV of past expansions.
I know merging MM and RSV is distasteful as someone who enjoyed the past iterations of the spec, but it may be our only option if they were to keep the melee spec.
How would you consider merging the specs, keeping the integrity of the Surv fantasy, while also improving on MM’s kit?
Note:
This isn’t a comprise, as we effectively have no choice in the matter, as the implementation of MSV had shown.
Ways to implement something that is missed, and convey that information in a realistic manner is something that can, and should be very much considered.
this is why that idea sucks: right now you get a spec + talents. if you use a talent tree to recreate an old spec, well now you have a spec with no talents. who knows what old SV + legion talent trees could have looked like? could have had a fully realized multi-dot/cleave spec option for our class but now we have a melee spec that 2% of people play.
There are no dot specs using a ranged weapon in the game since ranged survival was removed. But still 13 melee weapon specs, the majority of which use a 2h melee weapon.
Then you know were we would be? Right back here but instead the forums would be filled with “Bring back MSV”. Removing one spec for another is just repeating the cycle, you can not always sacrifice the few for the many. It is better to find a way to find a compromise or just bring it back as another option.
You are hurt that you lost your sec, but would you feel no remorse for putting another through the same?
Exactly, Blizzard is not going to budge on this. They have made a core fantasy around MM and being the patient sniper is that identity.
Blizzard really dug themselves into hole with this idea. Many other fantasy games have Hunters dual wielding, or using daggers and one handed axes.
Think Blizzard went with Polearms since Hunters kept them as stat sticks, being that it was easier to get one weapon with agi than farming for two individual weapons.
This begs the question that if RSV had been brought into Legion or later on waht would have we been given after Blizzard was done? They would have naturally put their own spin on the spec, we have already seen that they implement very few of our suggestions. Would players have the spec they imagined or a poor imitation?
This would solve many of the issues that players dislike about current MM. It is impossible to do damage when the floor is lava. Hunter are about mobility that other range specs can not bring.
Played classic and think Hunter would start is a similar form.
You start with your pet, no growl yet, be able to use a range weapon, and have one melee attack. You start with the bare basic of a Hunter that way you would come to know how they play.
At level 10 you will select a specialization through the talent tree, which will have three strengths, pet, range and melee. The strength you select will give you your first abilities, similar to how picking a spec now gives you the basic abilities that are base line.
However, as you level and gain talent points you can swap abilities between specializations by opening up other abilities from the other strengths, choosing to either be a pure form of a spec, by staying on the path, or being a hybrid of other talents choosing the kind of specialization you like.
Yes there would be. If you are still mad after four years, why would you think that those of us who do play wouldn’t be? Then again it’s also been 4 years.
Yes, there would differently be even if it was just the few MSV hunters who post now. It would be just as the same as is now with Bepples and Yura posting, there would be a endless fight.
Before we actually got the announcement that SV was going melee, I was expecting the ranged version to eventually become more focused on DoTs. And how to build them up, either through damage or duration.
Thus allowing for the class to be better at multi-dot’ing. Somewhat.
As for Black Arrow specifically, I decided in my suggestions to make it focus mostly on ST-damage as a base with your major CD being what determines your capability to use it on several enemies at once. Either through automatic spread or manual applications.
While Rapid Fire is active, the first hit of Explosive Shot when cast will reset the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow, and the periodic damage effect applied by Black Arrow can now stack up to 3 times.
If you, during Rapid Fire, use Explosive Shot on an enemy affected by Black Arrow, then each explosion from the charge will cause the toxin to spread to other nearby enemies. Rapid fire lasts for 20 seconds. 2 minute cooldown.
I later also added a situational replacement effect for the automatic spread of BA during Rapid Fire(the major CD), for when you’re in instanced PvP. Due to some feedback I got on MMOC where someone pointed out that you would not want that to spread automatically.
For PvP, you would instead have the additional charge proc of BA whenever someone removes/dispels it somehow. Meaning you get a free extra charge of BA every time that happens.
I also added in a bonus trait/set bonus effect suggestion that involves Black Arrow resets. Which would help with manual build-up or multi-dot’ing for the ability.
Both BM and RSV had Cobra Shot as focus generators back in the day(WoD as an example). I honestly don’t mind that.
Sure, today, for BM it’s a spender. But you could still make it a generator for RSV.
It fits them both.
Having Cobra Shot for RSV would also allow us to keep the mechanic from MoP where it used to refresh/increase the duration of Serpent Sting on the target. Something that fits thematically.
-Level 90- Spitting Cobra - Cobra Shot now extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on the enemy target by X sec, up to a max of 15 seconds. In addition, Cobra Shot now has a high chance of generating double Focus when fired.
I chose to put it in as a talent, with a second addition to it. It says “up to a max of 15 seconds”. That just means that the max duration the SS debuff can have is 15 seconds. You can ofc continue to extend it as it ticks down. You just can’t manually increase it to, let’s say 25 seconds.
I liked this.
I’ve included a version of this as a baseline passive effect.
Lock and Load - Periodic damage caused by Black Arrow and Immolation Trap have a chance to add 1 extra charge of Explosive Shot which will consume no focus when fired.
Keep in mind that Explosive Shot with my design has 2 charges baseline. Up from one. This will essentially allow for more player oriented choices by default rather than relying as much on RNG. This was the goal at least.
Allowing us to choose between more burst potential or more sustained damage even as SV, would’ve been the natural way to go really.
You could baseline keep Explosive Shot as it was. You could allow multiple charges of ES to be active on 1 target at the same time. Much like SoC for locks. And with 2 ES charges baseline and with my L&L design, you can with some luck get several charges on the same target for some nice burst.
And for more sustained damage, I chose to go with a talent-design:
-Level 15- T.N.T - If Explosive Shot is used on an enemy already affected by a previous charge, the charge’s remaining duration is refreshed as well as increased by an additional 3 seconds.
When a Exotic Munitions-proc occurs, it will now increase the duration of Explosive Shot on the target by 3 seconds, in addition to adding 5 seconds to one of the following periodic damage effects: Serpent Sting, Black Arrow, Immolation Trap, if any are active when the proc occurs.
Note: Manually, you cannot increase the duration of a Explosive Shot-debuff on a target beyond 9 seconds max. Exotic Munitions-procs can extend that to a max of 12 seconds.
Much like with Spitting Cobra above, you can with this talent only build up ES to a certain point. But you can continue to refresh/extend it for as long as you want(depending on your luck with RNG ofc).
I designed it like that so that you shouldn’t be able to keep ES active on a target forever. Unless you’re very lucky with RNG that is.
I chose to include the ability Quick Shot that MM had during the beta. Mostly because, especially for ST fights, you would probably have some downtime with all DoTs up. Time where you could spend some excess Focus.
It adds a slight change in theme compared to the non-physical abilities you have as well. It also allowed me to put in a talent that you can choose to replace Quick Shot with for when you’re leveling or questing in open world, or for anyone who just might want a little focus on their pet. And, it allows for a change in pace as well.
Anything even remotely pet related is entirely optional though. As many wouldn’t want to deal with a pet.
Yeah, what I mentioned above.
Here’s the bonus trait/set bonus as well:
(2) When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc. It will grant you an additional bonus effect depending on which periodic damage-effect it benefits.
Serpent Sting - Until the current Serpent Sting debuff expires or is refreshed, every time it deals damage to the target, you instantly gain 3 Focus.
Black Arrow - The remaining cooldown on Black Arrow is instantly reset.
Immolation Trap - Your next Immolation Trap will deal an extra X% damage and will also have an increased X% chance to critically hit the affected target.
Mentioned some of my Major CD suggestion in the beginning but, here it is in full(if you like it, then you like it. If not…sorry):
Rapid Fire - Increases your haste by X%, and on use, grants a charge of Explosive Shot(triggers Lock & Load).
While Rapid Fire is active, the first hit of Explosive Shot when cast will reset the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow, and the periodic damage effect applied by Black Arrow can now stack up to 3 times.
If you, during Rapid Fire, use Explosive Shot on an enemy affected by Black Arrow, then each explosion from the charge will cause the toxin to spread to other nearby enemies. Rapid fire lasts for 20 seconds. 2 minute cooldown.
Keep in mind what I said regarding the spread mechanic and instanced PvP, where it’s replaced with the bonus effect for Black Arrow, allowing you to gain extra charges of it in case of dispels/removals.
Also, in case this isn’t clear. You’re always able to stack up Black Arrow on a target. Even if Rapid Fire(Major CD) isn’t active. Just that normally, BA doesn’t last long enough for it’s CD to be finished in time to refresh it.
You do however have some talent options which will help you keep it up longer.
Anyway, here’s my suggestion post in full in case anyone wants the whole picture:
Did you not read my entire post? Judging by you quoting one aspect of what I said, I’m gonna assume you didn’t.
I don’t absolutely advocate removing stuff and in the case of melee SV, I won’t for it either since I know it does have its audience(despite me hating melee SV and I do personally think it should be removed due to such low popularity and representation across the board). However Blizzard definitely needs to bring ranged SV back, the way it was. Not some hollow shell like so many specs are currently.
Edit: To be clear. My opinion of melee SV is that its boring, doesn’t fit the class thematic of ranged w/pet, and doesn’t do anything that other melee can’t do better. (personally I won’t advocate for its removal outright because I do know it has its audience, though I do wish it were removed). If that makes sense.
Likewise, in my earlier posts in this thread, I’ve openly expressed how much I wished they would just add RSV back as a 4th spec(akin to what they finally did to Druids to separate Feral and Guardian). Or, for them to modify the SV talents within MM to actually give a semblance of the old playstyle(big thing being to revert Explosive Shot back to its old version instead of this current garbage, among other things).
Regardless, considering some of the die hard MSV trolls in this thread, no. I wouldn’t feel that much remorse if Blizzard outright killed MSV tomorrow. But for the non trolls and genuine people having a discussion(not the “lul RSV sucked, get over it” types), yes. I would feel remorse because I don’t think any content should ever be removed. That goes for old questlines like the MoP cloak and WoD ring, to old raids like Vanilla Naxx, to old dungeons like Vanilla Sunken Temple, UBRS, to classes losing abilities(Kill Shot, Frostfire Bolt, etc…), to classes losing actual specs. But it was damn stupid of Blizzard to remove one of the most popular specs in the game for such a niche spec that they KNEW would have low representation. Doubly so since RSV was a thing for how many years? 14? But I digress.
Most of the arguments only arise because certain people love to spam nothing more than the “RSV sucked, you suck, it’s dead Jim” type comments just to incite opposed to having actual discussion. When our spec that we played for over a decade is destroyed, we have every right to be mad, frustrated, etc… and want a return to our spec. But god forbid some people don’t understand that.
Blizzard has proven inept at giving the RSV playstyle many of us long for via talents in MM. Which makes sense, given how different MM and SV are. Naturally aspects of SV make very little sense being in MM’s talents and gameplay wise, they feel clucky to use or in most cases, aren’t even worth taking, if ever. So at this point, the best we can hope for is a 4th spec option for 9.0. Rename it Dark Ranger and reskin all the abilities to be shadowy or whatever, I don’t care. Most people don’t care. We just want our spec back.