they should just make mm better…have a class based around traps was pretty meh forever
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Or they could just delete the melee spec that nobody plays and give us back a spec that was one of the most popular specs in the game until Blizzard inexplicably deleted it.
Despite melee survival being the highest DPS hunter spec for much of its existence, there are still 25 ranged hunters for every 1 melee hunter. Time to take the goshdarn hint, Blizzard.
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Survival wasn’t really based around traps at the time it was the most popular raiding spec. It was more of a DoT spec.
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Probably more like 100 ranged hunters for every 1 melee. The amount of players who are melee Survival is such a tiny niche. I wish they would kill it off and bring ranged Survival back, but we both know they wont do that.
The best we can hope for is getting a 4th spec(like how Druid’s finally got a 4th so Feral and Guardian had their own). While its obvious they added Serpent Sting and Explosive Shot as MM talents to give the illusion of being able to maintain a semblance of the ranged SV style, they failed hardcore.
Truthfully though, I have no clue what they were smoking to even fathom the idea of “Lets kill the most popular hunter spec, one of the most popular specs in the game, to make a spec that we know will have a very tiny niche group playing it because it’ll be melee and hunters are about ranged and pets”. Much less what they were on to actually implement it, but I digress.
I don’t absolutely advocate removing stuff and in the case of melee SV, I won’t for it either since I know it does have its audience(despite me hating melee SV and I do personally think it should be removed due to such low popularity and representation across the board). However Blizzard definitely needs to bring ranged SV back, the way it was. Not some hollow shell like so many specs are currently.
Because again, I don’t know what they were thinking when they killed the most popular spec and made it one of the least played specs in the game. That should’ve thrown up so many red flags at their meetings and stuff. “Boys, we done goofed”. Alas.
Edit: To be clear. My opinion of melee SV is that its boring, doesn’t fit the class thematic of ranged w/pet, and doesn’t do anything that other melee can’t do better. I won’t advocate for its removal outright because I do know it has its audience, though I do wish it were removed(personally). If that makes sense.
Also edited some stuff for clarity.
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I’m basing it off warcraftlogs figures. Certainly the disparity would be greater if you took M+ and general world content into account where ranged is more superior. But even in raids, where survival has been the highest DPS hunter spec for much of its existence, only 4% of hunters are playing survival.
I don’t think it’s impossible that they will revert survival back to range, but it would require them to admit that they were wrong, something nobody likes doing.
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This.
It was designed with the theme of using explosives, poison and animal venom while also having some extra options to focus on trap enhancement.
Broke my fingers long ago, as I kept them crossed for the return of RSV.
Still keeping my hope up though!
And like you said, the 4th spec option, is the best one. For several reasons.
I wouldn’t call what they did there a serious attempt. Barely one at all really.
Most likely because they really just wanted an easy way to give the class a bit more diversity. Adding a melee option, would do just that.
In short, they really just wanted to give the class a melee-spec.
Why they removed RSV to make room for it? Because they were of the mindset that we shouldn’t have a 4th spec.
This being their big mistake.
Which is what I’m hoping has changed going forward. That they realize their mistake and take the time to give us what we want.
I’m not asking for them to apologize. That wouldn’t solve the issue at hand.
Give me ranged SV as a 4th spec and I couldn’t be happier!
I’m quite curious for some specifics regarding this.
“As it was…” When?
How should it be designed today? In order to fit the modern game.
While we might’ve liked past iterations of the spec from WotLK or Cata, or MoP/WoD. The fact is that neither of those versions can be brought back as they were. Because they wouldn’t fit within the modern game.
I know that I’ve posted my suggestions before, but feel free to check them out(link below) and add your own thoughts in a reply on what you would like to see for the spec if it came back.
If you have any questions regarding the design suggestions, feel free to ask
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You’re diminishing the value of traps to mop survival. survival was split evenly between it’s mobility with dot damage from it’s shots and traps for utility to where having some one set off a frost trap would give you a free explosive shot. mop survivals Dots and being completely mobile were only half of it’s core.
It would have worked choosing piercing shot as a talent would have replaced aimed shot.
They failed because they tied down Mm to aimed shot making it unable to be fully mobile for the sake of fantasy when they shouldn’t have.
If blizzard were to update piercing shot by having it replace aimed shot but keep it’s similar mechanics 2xStack and 15 second cool down that interacts with trick shots.
You’d literally have that mobile ranger half of ranged survival’s gameplay that’s so dearly missed.
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the thing about survival is that it’s just cool to have a melee spear using class as an option. which wouldn’t be in the game otherwise.
if anything they should just give mm back viper shot to give us some DOT
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And here’s the problem.
Aimed Shot is core to MM’s identity. It’s been quintessentially MM for literally every iteration of the spec to the point where it defines the spec.
There is a place in the class for a stationary, patient sniper spec. Getting that big Aimed Shot crit off is very satisfying and rewarding and it fits really well thematically. There’s also a place for a utilitarian DoT-based spec. They aren’t the same thing and trying to force both of them in the same class just ends up with two incomplete, watered-down specs in one. Case in point: taking away Aimed Shot or making it optional. It’s compromising MM’s identity for the sake of ranged SV.
It’s just yet another compromise, another price to pay, and another blow to the ranged aspect of the class for the sake of melee SV. Melee SV is just not worth any of that. MM shouldn’t have to suffer because of that mistake.
Sure you would. Arms Warrior. Or any 2H user, for that matter.
Don’t fall in to the trap of associating certain specs with particular weapon types. SV today isn’t even that rooted in spear-wielding and you can use other weapons like axes as well, as long as they are 2H. Hard-coding the weapon type in each spec was a Legion decision. A mistake, actually.
I assume you mean Serpent Sting here. Serpent Sting already exists as an MM talent. Even if it were ever worth taking it doesn’t make MM into ranged SV. Just chucking one DoT in there is nowhere near enough. Ultimately they are different modes of damage and different identities. That’s why Affliction and Destruction are different specs, too.
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well i mean…we already have multiple classes with DOT specs too so…
and also i think a pure DOT spec is kind of weird for an archer spec…i dunno.
personally i think it would be cool if they made it kinda like…a pseudo ranged class like huskar from dota 2…now that would be neat.
that’s my class fantasy for the class i guess.
to be fair there is also viper from dota 2 who is pure ranged poison based type class…so…
a huskar type hero just seems more unique and interesting WOW though since we already have multiple ranged DOT classes
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As discussed earlier, a talent that shares the synergies and aspects with Aimed, but allowing movement, would be greatly beneficial.
Instant cast Explosive Shot as an option to replace Aimed’s (or even exist baseline with a synchronised CD to Aimed) stationary issues. Same CD, charges and synergies with Trick Shots, Careful Aim, Precise Shots etc…
Throw in Black Arrow and you’re well on the way in creating a sub spec.
There’s a high change MSV will remain as it was very intentional in it’s creation. While I agree that 4th spec is a possible solution, I wouldn’t consider the comparison to Druid with it’s pre-cata Feral to be solid, as it had very clear issues with multiple roles in the one spec.
That begs another question if what RSV would resemble in BFA. So many specs are a shadow of themselves from MoP/WoD.
This was contained in optional talent-choices.
Not something that the spec was based around. The core of the spec was based around DoTs and focus building/spending.
That mechanic was meant to further build on the core’s basic design.
If by worked you mean ‘‘adding options to make MM more mobile’’ sure.
But it would still be catering to the fantasy of MM. Not to RSV.
What were after, is NOT just a playstyle where we can be mobile rangers.
The abilities and the overall design of RSV and how it catered towards it’s intended theme/fantasy. THAT, is what were after.
Piercing Shot has nothing to do with explosives/poison/animal venom. Nor with DoTs. Neither would your suggestion to add in Barbed Shot as a bleed.
Sure, it deals damage over time, but Barbed Shot is designed with the intention of strengthening your pet. Invoke it’s bloodlust and it’s primal instincts.
Agreed.
This.
The only thing that matters is if you can make the mechanical design fit the fantasy. Both of the spec and the class as a whole.
Keep in mind that ‘‘DoTs’’ are not the same as ‘‘magical debuffs’’. It literally means ‘‘Damage-over-time’’. Which is a mechanical design you can achieve in many ways.
Examples:
You can get it through using magic.
Through bleeds.
Through poisons.
Through animal venom.
Through fire.
(yes, there is fire in the game that does not come from magic. Explosive Shot was one example. Immolation Trap another)
Anyway, feel free to read my suggestions for a DoT-based hunter spec, and get back to me about whether it makes sense or not.
You can find them in part 2 of this post:
It had those issues yes.
But the actual problem wasn’t that it contained multiple roles in one spec. Or well, that to. But the very base issue, was that it contained multiple playstyles/fantasies within one spec. Fantasies that did not mix very well. Fantasies that could not be fully fleshed out as long as they remained as they were.
This can be applied to the topic of combining MM with RSV as well. Very much so.
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i mean, aff warlock and shadow priest mostly do DOT through shadow damage so…not really seeing what point you’re trying to make.
it’s the same thing as say poison damage or something by the way
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My point is that as long as you can design abilities for the spec which makes sense thematically, then ofc they can be DoTs.
Poison does not have to be created from magic.
You can literally go out in the world, find a poisonous plant where, if you digest one of it’s leaves/flowers, you die.
You can then grind those leaves/flowers down and mix them with water(or some other liquids). And voila! You have a liquid poison that is not based on using magic.
Dip an arrow or a bullet in said poison and you have a way to ‘‘inject’’ that posion into an enemy.
In short, poison is not always the same thing as magic.
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And we have even more physical melee weapon specs.
There are a lot of specs and only so many modes of damage.
I think it would fit an archer spec really well. Poisoned arrows are something you see both in real life and in pretty much any RPG that has archers at all, as is the concept of arrows/bullets buffed by magical effects. Look to Final Fantasy 14: their archer class, the Bard, is centred around high mobility and DoT/magic effects that tie into the single target damage.
If they apparently can’t maintain 3 different ranged weapons specs there is no way they will make a new ranged weapon class. They are too set in their ways, which is making new melee spec after new melee spec.
I could be wrong and I hope to be, but I would also hate for the only option for the ranged SV playstyle and identity to end up in a different class. This is my Hunter toon, it was the one on which I played ranged Survival and I would hope to again be able to play ranged Survival on this character one day.
It doesn’t even need to be a talent.
In WoD our Sniper Training mastery existed as a buff that was only permanent as long as we stood still; as soon as we moved it fell off after ~5 seconds and would only reapply after standing still for ~3 seconds (don’t remember the exact values). Meanwhile Aimed Shot was a mobile cast. This was a really good mobility compromise.
This would be a really cheap, budget version of what ranged SV was and could be.
Notice how none of us are advocating for a 1:1 remake of MoP/WoD SV. Look at Ghorak’s suggestions. What should happen is an evolution on the foundation of ranged Survival. For example, for a DoT-based spec, SV lacked any real incentive to multidot beyond using Multi-Shot to spread Serpent Sting to clumped targets. There was a lot of potential in Black Arrow with its Lock and Load interaction; if we could multidot with it our single target damage would scale up. This was something that was tried a couple times but they never committed to it. This sort of interaction can’t really be duct-taped together with MM talents.
It goes back to what I said earlier; ultimately you would just end up with 2 watered-down specs in one: the sniper archetype and the munitions expert archetype.
I would imagine that a casted focus generator would be gone entirely. They might go with what Legion and BFA did for Survival focus generation: a short cooldown instant that gives focus, given that “focus over time” is already used by BM with Barbed Shot and “fully active casted focus generation” is owned by MM… I don’t know what ability they would go with for that; they would probably have to make a new one. I think they would have definitely avoided Cobra Shot and Steady Shot entirely as those are already used by other specs. The often-forgotten Viper Venom passive could have been expanded (Serpent Sting ticks giving Focus) at least in multi-dotting situations.
Lock and Load charges would become the major resource of the spec, alongside Focus. In early WoD beta they experimented with a system where Lock and Load procs were more frequent and gave 1 charge at a time, and they made Explosive Shot incur no cooldown just like the old charges but the ES was no longer free. This effectively turned ES into the main focus dump of the spec, removing the need for Arcane Shot. It also allowed charges to be built up for burst damage. They cancelled this (likely because they determined the spec wouldn’t last beyond WoD anyway) but in an alternate universe this would probably be the future of Survival.
Arcane Shot would be gone, again as MM would own it. They could have possibly gone with Serpent Sting as an active ability again (like today) with higher initial damage to make it a good focus filler between Lock and Load procs.
Black Arrow would have some sort of multidotting functionality, probably via CDR. The Archimonde trinket in WoD made Black Arrow have a high chance to reset CD when using Cobra Shot/Arcane Shot. Effects being seen on items/sets first and then later on the baseline class is something the game has seen before many times, including with Survival itself; Expose Weakness was a tier set bonus from Vanilla before becoming a Survival talent in BC/WotLK. Some sort of Black Arrow CDR would be tied into the base spec. I’m not sure if it would be a total CD reset as it would resemble Wild Command from BM but it could have been something like a few seconds taken off for each Serpent Sting tick.
So the core of the spec would be Explosive Shot, Serpent Sting, and Black Arrow at this point. They would probably add something else, such as Wildfire Bomb. They could also have tried (and failed) to incorporate trapping into the core gameplay. But Legion demonstrated people really don’t like that.
They would also have some sort of spec-specific CD, but I can’t imagine what they would have gone with. In WoD they were going to make one but just like the LnL change it got cancelled. It was going to be “Bear Trap”, but let’s be honest: that sounds pretty crap and is again tying the spec’s core damage priority to a trap.
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No talent needed at all, as it could exist beside Aimed Shot, similar to how Arcane shares its CD with Aimed in classic, to avoid confusion on intended use.
This would be greatly beneficial to MM without even considering the SV fantasy. If we’re not doing that, then Barbed Shot, or anything. Just allow MM it’s instant cast shot that mirrors Aimed’s role in the MM kit.
But as you mention the WoD Mastery, I think that’s also something that should be considered, that could very well be an alternative to the above.
I mention here as a possibility to rectify MM issues (mostly on PvP), while also considering a merging of playstyles, or if preferred, an option between them.
And that is a possibility. Especially with the general sub par design we received in BFA.
What if they got it right?
Allowing MM to have it’s fantasy, while also allowing a fantasy for those missing older Surv designs.
We have an intended melee spec that has taken the place of old Surv. Much as we’d love it, wouldn’t be the same spec we enjoyed in MoP/WoD.
So unfortunately, we just can’t expect MSV to compete with RSV of past expansions.
I know merging MM and RSV is distasteful as someone who enjoyed the past iterations of the spec, but it may be our only option if they were to keep the melee spec.
How would you consider merging the specs, keeping the integrity of the Surv fantasy, while also improving on MM’s kit?
Note:
This isn’t a comprise, as we effectively have no choice in the matter, as the implementation of MSV had shown.
Ways to implement something that is missed, and convey that information in a realistic manner is something that can, and should be very much considered.
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this is why that idea sucks: right now you get a spec + talents. if you use a talent tree to recreate an old spec, well now you have a spec with no talents. who knows what old SV + legion talent trees could have looked like? could have had a fully realized multi-dot/cleave spec option for our class but now we have a melee spec that 2% of people play.
As opposed to the wide range of selections we have now? Don’t go acting as though MM has a wide range of active builds.
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But melee weapon specs don’t exist amiright?
There are no dot specs using a ranged weapon in the game since ranged survival was removed. But still 13 melee weapon specs, the majority of which use a 2h melee weapon.
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Then you know were we would be? Right back here but instead the forums would be filled with “Bring back MSV”. Removing one spec for another is just repeating the cycle, you can not always sacrifice the few for the many. It is better to find a way to find a compromise or just bring it back as another option.
You are hurt that you lost your sec, but would you feel no remorse for putting another through the same?
Exactly, Blizzard is not going to budge on this. They have made a core fantasy around MM and being the patient sniper is that identity.
Blizzard really dug themselves into hole with this idea. Many other fantasy games have Hunters dual wielding, or using daggers and one handed axes.
Think Blizzard went with Polearms since Hunters kept them as stat sticks, being that it was easier to get one weapon with agi than farming for two individual weapons.
This begs the question that if RSV had been brought into Legion or later on waht would have we been given after Blizzard was done? They would have naturally put their own spin on the spec, we have already seen that they implement very few of our suggestions. Would players have the spec they imagined or a poor imitation?
This would solve many of the issues that players dislike about current MM. It is impossible to do damage when the floor is lava. Hunter are about mobility that other range specs can not bring.
Played classic and think Hunter would start is a similar form.
You start with your pet, no growl yet, be able to use a range weapon, and have one melee attack. You start with the bare basic of a Hunter that way you would come to know how they play.
At level 10 you will select a specialization through the talent tree, which will have three strengths, pet, range and melee. The strength you select will give you your first abilities, similar to how picking a spec now gives you the basic abilities that are base line.
However, as you level and gain talent points you can swap abilities between specializations by opening up other abilities from the other strengths, choosing to either be a pure form of a spec, by staying on the path, or being a hybrid of other talents choosing the kind of specialization you like.