You should just stop. Making yourself sound stupid at this point.
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act smart?
I am stating my opinion. If you do not like it, you don’t have to respond.
but you will anyway =)))))
Yes, that is the point of a forum. Welcome.
But you can’t tell us why. Another “clever” attempt to make the Fallacy of Ad Hominem sound like a real attempt at logic.
I’ve seen those arguments made in this forum.
If you want a true AI follower dungeon system, Blizzard would have to radically change the way follower dungeons work.
Dungeons are designed to be group content. AI followers take over the role that other players would normally do, except they don’t make mistakes, so you end up with a game mode where the game largely plays itself and you’re just along for the ride.
They’d have to change follower dungeons so that it played like a single-player game mode where the onus is largely on the player and the followers are mostly there to help the player smooth out some rough edges due to their class kit.
Which, when you think about it, is essentially what Delves are. 
What exactly does this mean?
Because it sounds like your advocating for severe time gating of gear.
If friends are only playing to chase an arbitrary item level max and are threatening to stop playing when they reach it, how do they address the issue that some players simply play more than others?
Lots of players play M+ because it’s fun, regardless of the loot.
Why is this such a difficult concept for some players to understand? 
So, how about a Heroic+ mode? It scales from 1 to 10, the equivalent of current Heroic to M0, but with no timer, and would reward gear commensurate with the item levels available now (580 - 593).
Those players existed as far back as Wrath, probably before then, but Wrath was certainly my first exposure to them, so they are not a function of the timer existing.
At that point, you’re just fundamentally asking for a different game, a single-player RPG like Dragon Age: Origins.
Imagine if someone argued that the Brawler’s Guild should play like a fighting game, like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter.
At some point, you have to draw a line and say “this is what this game is; if you want something else, play something else.” WoW cannot be a game that caters to every possible whim.
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This is the issue, you clip only a part of a reply and then act like the rest of it doesnt exist. It’s dishonest as hell and to think anyone would take you seriously when you do that is wild.
Thats not what you did. You quite literally acted like we told you what YOUR position was FOR you when you didnt even give your position yet. That’s the issue you are choosing to ignore even though you literally reacted to it the first time.
Wrong. It comes from beating the content on every level there is.
In the case of M+, an infinitely scaling system, it comes from how high you can complete the content, up to the point where completing or timing the key is no longer possible.
This is the same for every single game in the history of ever that has a score system or a multiple difficulty system. You dont see people caring that you beat it on easy mode (and in fact a lot of console games mock you for choosing said difficulty with either specialized names or directly telling you that you aren’t good enough in their own way (like FPS games calling you soft or calling the enemies pushovers when you play on easy)
With games that have no difficulty slider or leaderboard and are just games for the sake of being games, sure, beating it is the recognition. Not the case for the majority of games after consoles evolved off of N64 and PS1/PS2.
Even Pokemon judged you on whether you could catch every pokemon to beat the game, not just "did you beat the elite 4? Okay games done) and it now has a multiplayer online leaderboard so that’s where the recognition is now.
So m+ without the timer? Why does the timer scare so many people
In order to balance difficulty without a timer and still reward comparable gear, people who think they want this would be flocking to the forums to complain about “impossible” difficulty scaling
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Timer scares me as tank because I don’t know all the dungeons fully nor all the affixes. If I stop and plan, or pull carefully, ppl gonna get upset. The alternative is to run a decent amount of very low dungeons and watch videos instead of actually playing current content.
You barely use the LFD tool much before giving up, don’t you.
This is a you problem. We knew what every dungeon did before the expansion launched, half the dungeons are multiple years old. The affixes were known before launch and have barely changed and do literally nothing for tank because the ones that did screw the tank were largely removed and the new affixes are all stopped by DPS.
They get upset because you don’t need to plan. You have the content known in advance. You have guides and youtube videos at a seconds notice. You willfully choosing to not do your due diligence knowing that, your words, you grasp it slower than other people is an entirely you thing and no one else can, or should be expected to, be at fault for that.
The alternative is reading. Looking at a 5 minute video, and to stop completely forgetting how a dungeon works when the expansion ends.
Example:
Necrotic Wake/Mists of Tirna Scythe have been out for 4 years in 12 days. The changes to NW were the weapon’s damage/stacking capabilities, and the removal of the mech orbs. Nothing else except putting a stacking damage aoe on Stitchflesh’s abom was changed and nothing in Mists was changed.
Siege of Boralus, with little changes, has been out for 6 years.
Grim Batol, with VERY few changes that do anything or real note other than bring the dungeon up to speed, has been out for 14 years in December. None of the trash was changed, and barely anything was changed with the other bosses either.
First boss still roared.
2nd boss still cleaved, fixated, and made weapons that did aoe damage.
3rd boss still did the tornadoes and elementals with the frontal
4th boss still did tentacles, circle, dot, and adds (they were just harder to see and thats been made better)
There isn’t much of an excuse to not know these dungeons. The perspectives of being a tank and dps only change because you’re the only pulling. The bosses dont do anything different to you whether your a tank or dps other than mechanics like a stacking debuff.
The other 4, we knew about before the expansion launched and there were guides and videos about them, you choosing to, apparently, go in blind or near blind and not get up to speed on any of them is only the fault of your own, especially when, even if you didnt watch any tww content before playing the expac, you still literally had to do the dungeons leveling up. Personally, I refuse to believe just didn’t play the 4 TWW dungeons that are in S1’s pool considering they make you play S1’s pool for M0.
Not true, at all. You must not be playing very high key levels. Take it up with blizzard that lower key levels are too easy. Yall will just complain again if they make it where you have to CC mobs at lower key levels so you don’t wipe.
Personally, I’m convinced that any powerful trinket in M+ has a separate percentage on it to drop. I’ve had to class stack for every powerful caster trinket since BFA just to see it.
But when I do that, up to 3 drop. At one point in DF the only loot out of Neltharus was the Spoils, because 4 dropped, because we had 3 casters that could roll for it and a healer who loot rolled dps, because I had done 28 neltharus’s prior and never saw it
We never had 10-man mythic raids. We had 10 man and 25-man heroic raids.
The issue with 10-man heroic raids were there were bosses that were walls literally just because you only had 10 people. More people hated that than anything else.
The only good 10-man content does, either on here or sod, is make it easier to form groups and lower the amount of personal responsibility.
Literally having more people and the bosses having higher health making the dungeons harder overall means, logically, that more quest items should drop. Who knew?
Literally having more people in the raid (before flex raiding existed) means more items drop and therefore a higher percentage naturally of getting thunderforged items. Who knew?
What disparity? There is literally no lockout, on anything, outside of mythic raiding, that is unique for the week.
The disconnect people dont seem to get is every M+ Dungeon is treated as its own lockout.
So are raids, however, you don’t get to just farm bosses repeatedly all week. Once you kill it, its dead. It should be like that because raids aren’t infinitely scaling, unless your argument is you want raid+ instead of normal, heroic, and mythic. Imagine THAT balancing nightmare or the lack of complexity that would occur.
Simply put, no. Not except for M+. It acts the same as raids, but as its infinitely scaling, each dungeon has to have its separate lockout. The only reason you dont notice is the dungeons are specifically made (and its scaling counterparts in M+) to last longer than the time it takes for your dungeon lockouts to expire. I don’t know if you remember this, but max dungeon per hour lockout is still in the game.
You just cant complete more than 10 instances in under an hour anymore because the dungeons are specifically designed and tuned to take you longer than that as each dungeon has a limit that is under an hour, but above 30 minutes, to complete in time. in order to time it. Even if you timed dungeons in 11 minutes 3 chesting every one, you wouldnt be able to do more than 5 in an hour unless you were a group boosting someone through like…2s
It’s not an assumption or a generalization. There is literally a subsection of players that did what he said, and they always do what he said. They are the same group of players that have existed since cataclysm heroics got backlash in 2010. This post matches up with that.
The proof is literally there. Yall are always so vocal about wanting things braindead easy but to give rewards that scale to the highest regard until conversations like this happen and you get called out on it. Then suddenly you try to distance yourselves from the very vocal stance you had not even half a year ago.
The solution isn’t just "give less rewards and make people play longer. There has to be a better answer than just timegating it.
The only thing you can’t do right now is bring someone into a key after someone leaves. Everything else is queueable. Hell everything under mythic is flex queueable and you can have 30+ people in it.
There is zero effort in trying to intellectually talk to Snowpine about anything. Just put them on ignore honestly, they just want to argue to argue.
They, like you said, just have their head in the sand and until blizzard says the game is closing because of X, they will never look up anything themselves and will die on the hill that “The parts of the game I like are totally fine trust me I promise”, and lets be real wow isn’t going to close unless the internet or blizzard themselves closes at this point.
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She literally told you. Those M+ and raiders will just do the content thats easier, and only the people that absolutely must be on the leaderboard will remain, or they will quit, because they have no incentive to do anything in the game anymore because you can get it from the easiest content, leaving everything else to basically die.
There is a reason that even in Vanilla, dungeons did not reward the best gear.
Pushing people to the most braindead of content is never the answer. Dumbing things down to your level instead of you rising up to the level of the content is NEVER the right answer.
Before you claim the level is just too unreasonable, it’s objectively not.
Your suggestions make it an auto battler.
Sure, but you’re missing the point. Delves above 8 aren’t worth it because its all cosmetic.
Delves @ 8 made every piece of content below a M7 or Heroic/Mythic raid completely meaningless because you just straight up didnt need to do the content.
The only reason you did m1-m6’s was if people just weren’t inviting you because of IO, if you had a group, who cares? Just jump into a 7 with full heroic raid equivalent gear and just get the hero track pieces. Sure flightstones and crests would take longer to farm, but thats what some people already want in this thread anyway
The only reason to do normal raid is just to say you did it.
Same for heroic, you only did heroic to get specific pieces like the queen ring, spymasters, the cloak from rash, the neck from sikran. Nothing else you really needed to do unless you just wanted to do it because you would see the fights on mythic anyway and all the gear was meaningless (and you dont get warband bound equipment NEAR enough for it to matter) unless you just needed to physically do the fights to learn them.
That’s not good design.
Please for the love of christ raise your level of reading comprehension.
It doesnt help the people who asked for it because the people who asked for it aren’t doing the numbers to complete the content anyways or they wouldnt be asking for it. Making the AI be capped at that persons individual skill level without it being higher than their skill level does nothing for them because their skill level is already not high enough for the content the relevant level of gear comes from. Hence why delves exist at all.
The next statement is a factual endpoint, if you have to dumb down the content enough that everything is a follower dungeon, just spawn the character in with max gear. It’s the equivalent of a private server “leveling road” gearing system at that point. No different than the extremely popular “AFK” mobile games where the majority of the time you literally can’t continue without either paying, leaving the game to auto complete content, or both.
I would argue that raids SHOULD take longer than 2 weeks to clear.
Have you seen the video on youtube that compiled how long each end raid boss took to clear?
The raids that took longer than 90 days:
Molten Core
AQ40
Even naxx, which the fewest amount of people ever saw, was exactly 90 days. Its wrath counterpart with how stupidly easy it was tuned and the fact that nothing changed from vanilla apart from Baron Rivendare replacing Mograine storyline wise so they had an excuse to take the corrupted ashbringer out of the game? 0. It was cleared in one day.
Tempest Keep
Ulduar, at 85 days not even 3 months and its one of the most beloved raids ever.
Under 3 months?
The least liked raid, Trial of the Grand Crusader, lasted 7 days.
Mists started the trend of things being tuned so easy that:
MSV was cleared in 3 days
HOF was cleared in 5
TOES? 5.
Throne? 14 days.
Siege? 14 days, with 11 of the 14 bosses dying in the first 2 days.
There wasnt a boss until Archimonde in Hellfire Citadel that lasted past 2 weeks and that was just by 2 days. Then it went right back to low raid times. EN, the raid directly after HFC, lasted not even a full day. TOV lasted 3, NH lasted 11. The list goes on.
Literally nothing has lasted as long as Al’akir did other than Archimonde since Cataclysm, and yet the raids before cataclysm are regarded as the best beyond specific fights.
I wonder why. It couldnt be because of the accomplishment one felt when clearing it could it? I mean, there are bosses that take 200-400 pulls to do that people just did not like to the point of pulling a “velen after sargeras was trapped” sigh when its over. As you can tell from the recorded videos of the past boss kills, that used to not be the case.
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More complicated isn’t always better. I think this razor thin min-max thing is not great, overall.
Like if you’ve been juggling for years, adding a new ball is fine. Normal, incremental growth. But, starting at that level is hard. I think it’s important to design challenges in a way that isn’t so muddled.
To be clear, the actual mechanics of raid are not that hard, individually. It’s needing to do them 20 times collectively with zero margin for error, which is prevalent on a lot of later bosses every tier. That’s the extra ball. Not the mechanic itself.
Delve+ is the future
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I don’t disagree… I just don’t know how you go back. Even classic had most people min maxing world buffs to 20min molten core.
Part of me bemoans the community but it was something the community choose.
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I think that’s fine, actually. There was a lot of space for improvement after completion.
Like the extra difficulties are the perfect fix for that delta between clearing and clearing in 20 minutes or 3 manning Onyxia. But they’ve messed up the reward structure. I think it would be a huge boon to the game if the mythic track didn’t exist at all.
Locking appropriately leveled raid gear behind a competition-based format will forever be the worst decision the wow team had ever made. Beating out bonking Sylvanas with the evil stick.
Mythic raid would work best like high keys — for the competition. For clout.
Exactly. Mythic raid is trying to be too many things.
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I agree. Half the raid shouldn’t be free. Then you get to a point where your dreading the other half of the raid because everything will feel like Halondrus or Rashok.
Princess right now is kind of like Rashok with more steps because if you dont hit certain percentages by intermission you just aren’t going to kill it. Meanwhile you can kill Rash in enrage with full cast of the extended poison and be fine. That’s not good design at all. If you’re hitting enrage, you should wipe shortly after with a VERY small window of killing the boss, not outliving the entire cast with full health.
Your guild was unusually bad. MOP was literally the start of the trend where almost nothing lived past a week. Least of all the first bosses.
M+ is fun but the biggest barrier for it for me is that there’s too many little informational tidbits to know to be good at doing it, and trying to find that information for some reason is really hard. Even if I try to look around in class Discords there’s just nothing.
Sometimes guide writers will include that information, sometimes they don’t.
For example, I was looking around for information on when and where to place my warlock gate in specific dungeons and there just wasn’t any information out there about it at all. I could not find it anywhere and I feel like I looked pretty hard. I even tried searching some warlock M+ Youtube guides and either the Youtube algorithm just hates me or there was nothing in there.
I feel like the only way I have ever found information like this about M+ is by watching streamers for specific classes. Otherwise the only other way is by sucking at M+ and trying desperately to make friends in game who do M+ who can maybe give you this info.
There is a big informational barrier of entry when it comes to M+.
There is not a time in recent history where the last boss on heroic was easier than the first 2 or 3 on mythic.
That’s a big problem. Why even have them if they are tuned so low that you don’t even need to kill the last boss on heroic to farm them?
People didn’t even routinely kill Jailer until they had all the mythic bosses they could comfortably do on farm because he didn’t drop hardly anything useful. That is a huge problem in mechanical and tuning design if you ask me.
Tiers should go up to Myth gear IMO.
I love when people posts stuff like this. All of their suggestions boil down to " I want easier yet with the same rewards because I said so"
Like a few others have already explained. The timer is there because scaling the game to meet the rewards without the time would imply you having to deal with gasp mythic level difficulty which if you can’t do mplus currently would mean that you couldn’t handle the non timed mechanics anyways.
So no there can’t be a non timed mplus experience.
The closest thing I can think of for a no longer timed challenge would be putting a death counter a very small death counter that removed rewards as soon as you went over it. And removed CD coming back up unless you were in combat.