We did it! 2h frost!

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

Not having any arguments with people that actually want to have a conversation. The only ones actually creating problems is the same group that was creating problems before… huh, imagine that.

My point is still valid though, its not over yet. People wanted a lot more than just 2h, a weapon restriction lift is not more obliterate damage, is not the wod playstyle, its the same thing now but with a 2h and just worse.

Plus a certain group of people, have been gloating, pointing to me to do so, even though they are the architect of a false argument that I never made

You have nothing new to add to the conversation. Please follow your own advice.

[Leliel-alleria]

I think there’s nothing more to be gained from the conversation at this point, for both sides. The people happy about 2h being back will keep saying “Wait and see” and those who are bringing up that we should be wary are having their argument hand waved.

We should see what is in Alpha by the end of the week and then we’ll see if Blizzard has thought anything through yet or is just giving 2h and that’s it.

[Kelliste-antonidas (Kelliste)]

Looks like I was having a perfectly fine conversation with others… hmmmm.

[Leliel-alleria]

Let’s talk about this instead, from WOWhead for the alpha

New Class Abilities and Class Changes - Shadowlands Alpha Build 9.0.1.33978

Specialization (7)

• NEW Empower Rune Weapon Reduces the cooldown by 15 sec.

• NEW Frost Strike Increases damage done by 20%.

• NEW Killing Machine Your next Obliterate also deals Frost damage.

• NEW Obliterate Increases damage done by 20%.

• NEW Pillar of Frost Increases Strength by 10%.

• NEW Remorseless Winter Increases damage done by 20%.

• NEW Rime Increases Howling Blasts damage done by an additional 150%.

Talents (1)

• NEW Hypothermic Presence Embrace the ice in your veins, reducing the Runic Power cost of your abilities by 35% for 8 sec. Does not trigger the global cooldown.
  Tier 6 Talent, in place of Glacial Advance

[Kyrios-bleeding-hollow (Kyrios)]

I can’t wait.

[Kelliste-antonidas (Kelliste)]

Hey look, they actually seen the design issue with killing machine, and I suggested long ago it should be reverted or changed. Looks like they just changed it. The rest looks pretty much the same. The question is, is Glacial Advance gone or just moved? I mean it wasnt that great and no one used it, but it could have been changed slightly so it was actually useful.

[Leliel-alleria]

Wowhead notes if abilities were removed outright, so it might have been changed to being baseline?

But yes, the KM change is one of the best things there.

[Kelliste-antonidas (Kelliste)]

I made a racket about it in Legion, it was stupid to have an ability that gave a guaranteed crit, be based on crits.

But, with that change, Frostscythe should be changed since it had a crit modifier, and now the thing that provided that stable means of use is now gone, what is that going to change into? Replacement for Obliterate as the cleave option? If thats the case then how would KM react with it?

Also looks like Pillar might have lost its str stacking mechanic.

[Leliel-alleria]

Based on the other class changes, it looks like these are all added on, without things removed.

[Kelliste-antonidas (Kelliste)]

What I mean is, if some of these things arent removed, then they cant function as they do now with some of these changes. Frostscythe probably wont have a crit modifier on it since now you cant force it to crit with KM.

[Ovidiu-tichondrius (Ovidiu)]

Man with all of the dk changes, DK is going to be really amazing if they don’t change too much with the class over the life of the alpha/beta. Initial changes with frost and unholy/blood look very promising though.

[Xavaa-runetotem]

Im so freaking happy for you DK’s! I’ve been a long time supporter of returning the 2H playstyle, huge obliterate crits are what you live for. I love seeing the Overwhelming positivity from the Dk’s! Such a flavorful choice not only for aesthetic but playstyle as well. Help the Warriors, Shamans and Hunters receive such a wonderful blessing, choosing what weapons YOU want to use, rather being pigeon holed into a certain class fantasy.

[Krissignacia-eldrethalas (Krissignacia)]

frostsyth will have a cap of 5
rime will be 150 instead of 300

hopefully those will be reverted

[Foctordreeze-fenris]

Looks like most AoE abilities are getting a target cap, not just for DK’s. A good change I think. Either all AoE abilities should be capped or uncapped. Can’t have certain specs like beast master melting an unlimited amount of targets while marksman can only hit five.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

Looks like most AoE abilities are getting a target cap, not just for DK’s. A good change I think. Either all AoE abilities should be capped or uncapped. Can’t have certain specs like beast master melting an unlimited amount of targets while marksman can only hit five

Agreed.

[Kelliste-antonidas (Kelliste)]

So its the GW2 treatment. Capped aoe so people could actually tag mobs and get credit for open world content.

[Ovidiu-tichondrius (Ovidiu)]

Frostscythe is the only ability for UH or Frost that has a hard target cap currently. Howling Blast just does reduced damage to multiple targets.

[Raziael-moonrunner (Raziael)]

Use the talents, keep the base of the class, shift the choice and playstyle into the talents. That is if they can balance it. Look at the difference of Inexorable Assault and Cold Heart.

I honestly think that both current dps trees need both an overhaul and re organize, your example is a good one as to why.

Armor Pen was also capped at 100%. Was in the patch notes in I think 3.1? So past that it had no impact. 30% also wasnt exactly 30% but around 26.65%? Something like that from the explanation made by Ghostcrawler.

It was actually non linear, and when I played (quit 1/2 way through ICC 7 weeks or so after the raid was released-irl things) it wasn’t capped. If you didn’t have a minimum of 40% it wasn’t worth stacking but after that it was well worth stacking because of how it scaled, so once you were past 40% you got extra value for every point after. Blood specifically was great with the stat because of old Blood Gorged. Ghost Crawler was an idiot, he didn’t realize how half the specs in the game worked. It’s one of the reasons why homogenization was such a thing in Cata, and MoP trees came into existence.

The differences could come in with the Talent system. Thats what the talent system is for in the first place. It doesnt really do that, but say you want physical damage to hit harder. Bring back Brittle Bones. Frost Fever makes the targets armor brittle reducing their armor by x%.

Good idea, old BB was boring this is actually unique.

Talents are a good middle ground. Would it be distinct per weapon option? Maybe, maybe not. It definitely gives choice assuming balance is proper. Its hardly ever proper, but its not even to that point yet. Gotta build a foundation before you can do tuning.

Agreed, and my concern here is that it would’t be balanced despite best intentions because past track record with this company and balance. I’m weary of the gimmick at this point, while I enjoy corruption and neck essences for what they are in this moment I’d hate to see the game go that way permenently.

Plus a certain group of people, have been gloating, pointing to me to do so, even though they are the architect of a false argument that I never made.

They may be confusing you and another poster. I had to make sure of the difference several times in the old 2h mega thread. You know who I mean.

Initial changes with frost and unholy/blood look very promising though.

I’ve seen 3 expacs where the team pulled a bait and switch with really good dps DK iterations for Frost/Unholy, WoD, Legion, and BFA. Cata as good as well. In all 3 instances the specs were gutted before live launch or shortly threafter.

Wait till live, and even then things can change.

[Raziael-moonrunner (Raziael)]

Really interesting, I’m going to have to really read the Unholy and Frost ones several times to put it together.

Looks good so far, trying not to be pessimistic because of past transgressions of the development team.

[Kelliste-antonidas (Kelliste)]

Overhaul? I dont know about that, reorganize definitely.

Just saying what the patch said about it capping at like 1240 or something which was 100%, and Ghostcrawler even went through the calculations for how much armor was bypassed. I dont know how you can bypass armor over 100% anyways since it basically becomes magic damage at that point and needed a main stat to increase from there. While GC might have not known everything, at least he did try knocking LFR down a few pegs. I think he said “just because people are doing something doesnt mean they actually like it” pointing to the fact that people did it because they went to fill in their tier sets quicker.

Is it hard to balance say Inexorable Assault and Cold Heart? No. They just havent done it. Basically, you need both to do 32104 damage per 40 seconds. Which is what my cold heart does every 40 seconds. That means every 8 seconds Inexorable Assault needs to do 6420.8 damage every 8 seconds. but it only does 3214. Cold Heart is just better.

But Inexorable Assault probably wont be in game since they changed KM to give Obliterate Frost Damage instead of a guaranteed crit. The change they made to how it procced in Legion was stupid.

And ohhh no they know its me. Its been months, ever since some said 2h was always better than DW, which I called out at being a false statement and ever since then I have been labled “anti-2h”. Which if I am anti-2h, what are the people that actually said “no 2h”.

Im being realistic. One change has already had me questioning a lot of other things which are probably going to be changed. Like Icecap. Since KM wouldnt give a crit, it just means you would need even more crit to make that work. So I would say that will be changed in the future. Frostscythe will be changed.

Not a lot of changes, nothing major either, but somewhat good changes.