Whats ironic exactly?
There were a lot of angry players when Blizzard took the ability to dw away from Unholy for that exact reason, also because KM could proc of both hands but Sudden Doom was verboden for some reason.
Tonnes of people outright quit over that. So donât be too surprised that there arenât people asking for it now, especially since they removed Cinderglasier.
They felt different in Wrath as well, drastically because of the different pacing and different damage mods depending on what weapon you used.
To be clear about this I donât view this exchange as an argument. We want the same thing, just have different views about how we get there. The beauty of discourse.
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The good advice that you just didnât take.
And who wouldâve thought?
It figuresâŚ
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Kelliste, Iâll tell you this: As someone whoâs played DK from early wotlk till now, I love the fact that we got choice back. Up until Legion, I would be 2h for world content (edit: and normal and heroic dungeons) and dw for if I decided to do mythic dungeons or normal + raids.
However, Legion and BfA stripped us from being able to choose. Thatâs what I was POed about and decided to play an arms warrior instead.
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I think in your haste to reply, you quoted the wrong person. Just letting you knowâŚ
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Well said sir, and I totally agree!
Tfw youâve run out of likes in a single day.
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Unholy DW was a bug. It didnt last long, people just flocked to it because it was just too good not too.
Cinderglacier, tried using that thing multiple times and that damn thing would never proc.
Cata had a lot of reasons why people left. Rewards not matching the difficulty, rep stuff, hyrbid specs being cut which were garbage in the first place and they didnt want new players or just bad players playing something that was WAY behind anything else. Its along the same lines as laws forcing people to wear a helmet on a motorcycle. In an attempt to protect people, choice is taken away. The Blizzard of old would have said âoh well, get betterâ but the mindset has shifted heavily.
In wrath, the spec still played the same. You wanted your diseases up 100%, you wanted to convert your blood runes to death runes, use rime when it procced, and keep the flow going with doing 2 obliterate and 2 blood strikes, to dumping runic power while runes were on CD, and then doing 3 obliterates then dumping runic. KM didnt matter, DW still hit like a truck, just more KM procs and 15% frost damage. The damage was just kind of in different places, but 2h was still behind to the point I didnt see a single 2h frost dk. Anywhere. With gearscore and people saying go follow a guide which basically said âDW or GTFOâ I never seen a 2h frost dk. Never seen DW Blood or Unholy either.
I also dont view it as an argument.
Yeah, you got a choice. But the playerbase can influence that. If 2h is behind, lets just say 10-15% which is reasonable since in cata it was 10% behind with a Might of the Frozen Wastes buffing it, the playerbase, if keeping up with things, could just say âno 2h frostâ. Its a very real possibility. You could choose to pick Inexorable Assault, you could choose to pick Avalance, you could choose to pick Obliteration. It means nothing if people dont want to do content with you because the choice nerfs the groups overall damage.
The only real solution is to make your own group. People can leave when they see its a 2h frost dk and nothing is done to cement it in place. Ive seen it before âoh its x spec and class, im out of here, im not carrying them through this dungeonâ. And they leave.
Sometimes choice is just an illusion.
Just clicked on the wrong thing, didnt even notice.
No worries, just letting you know.
Those people got what they want while my input is still valid and others tend to agree that getting the choice back is really just the beginning.
So how is it ironic exactly?
You told him that he had nothing new to add to the conversation and thusly should leave because of it.
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Depended on the spec and the situation, DW frost could get away with more howling blast spam for aoe and 2h was more focused on oblit. Reason I say that about DW is because if you had more than one target before the Howling Blast change in ICC Howling beat Oblit on more than one target for DW (non ArP build) where as for 2h (numerically worse also-even at 120% Arp) Oblit wasnât a loss till you had 3 targets. Even after the change HB was still better on more than one target, which was the point at the time I guess, didnât want dkâs using all HB. Sort of funny when you consider masterfrost/master simple.
You used Blood Boil if you were stacking Strength and Blood strike if you were stacking ArP, add count didnât matter till you were hitting into more than 5 for ArP Frost. Then you had to use BB.
Then you had presence choice as well, which was affected by DW/2h choice. Again, mostly impacted pacing and a few talent choices. Blood Caked Blade being one. Essentially more agency.
I agree, I was speaking in context of DK players. I dropped the game for a time and a lot of others dropped it forever after that change. For the exact reason that I gave; frost could do all those things, and I think they also nerfed Unholy on top of that bug fix in the same patch. Yes, SD off hand procs were a bug, however I think it should have stayed, or be brought back with Cinderglasier. I also remember that particular forge not proccing as much as Razorice or FC, so that would have to be addressed and normalized if it were ever-hypothetically- to be brought back. Speaking of rune forges from days past, anyone remember Lichbane? 
I wonder if a good middle ground between your thoughts on how to balance 2h/dw and mine would be your mechanics and different spell choices in the spell tree for weapon choice. That makes the balance easier and gives people like me who want distinction that distinction.
Armor Pen was just a good stat in general for the dk as a secondary. You got 30% attack speed from Icy Talons and a 1 sec GCD which made haste less appealing. You got around 30% crit on Obliterate and Frost Strike just from KM so it wasnt all that important either. So hit, expertise and armor pen were the 3 you sought after. At least thats what I had the most success with. I dont remember if I went strenth or not though, both armor pen and strength were both red gems if I remember correctly.
Wrath wasnt so different to that one or the other were ignoring parts of the spec like in MoP and WoD though. I dont think I seen a single DW user that liked ignoring Obliterate and not getting Rime procs. Kind of why Rime has been changed, and KM only works on Obliterate unless you also pick up Frostscythe. Rime increases the damage of Howling Blast now killing that old playstyle.
Unless Frost is flipped on its head, which I doubt it is, its going to be pretty much what we are seeing now.
Armor Pen was also capped at 100%. Was in the patch notes in I think 3.1? So past that it had no impact. 30% also wasnt exactly 30% but around 26.65%? Something like that from the explanation made by Ghostcrawler.
The differences could come in with the Talent system. Thats what the talent system is for in the first place. It doesnt really do that, but say you want physical damage to hit harder. Bring back Brittle Bones. Frost Fever makes the targets armor brittle reducing their armor by x%.
Use the talents, keep the base of the class, shift the choice and playstyle into the talents. That is if they can balance it. Look at the difference of Inexorable Assault and Cold Heart.
How about have Inexorable assault on one, Brittle bones on another and I dont know, some other way to modify Obliterate. Inexorable assault just adds frost damage period (not every 8 seconds), Brittle bones adds armor shred, possibly makes it so that it scales with Mastery or just works well with Versatility, third one being Frostscythe, replaces Obliterate, 2 rune cost, no crit modifier, works with KM, cleave option does less damage than obliterate.
Talents are a good middle ground. Would it be distinct per weapon option? Maybe, maybe not. It definitely gives choice assuming balance is proper. Its hardly ever proper, but its not even to that point yet. Gotta build a foundation before you can do tuning.
Because he got what he wanted, he admitted to only wanting the weapon option, he got it. Nothing left to add but a meaningless argument because of a character name and wants to have a disagreement. Hes, he should exit stage left.
Thatâs not how forums work. You arenât the grand arbiter of when he has nothing pertinent to add to a conversation, nor when something is pertinent at all.
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He admitted to it. He said he didnt, the conversation was moving forward, he said it wasnt important. Whats so hard to understand about that?
I mean no disrespect, but youâre the only person in this thread that really should move on.
This is not a thread for arguing about what they may or may not do when implementing 2h. There are other threads for that, this is clearly a (fairly derailed) celebratory thread. Retreading the same ground as the months past doesnât really fit here.
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Not having any arguments with people that actually want to have a conversation. The only ones actually creating problems is the same group that was creating problems before⌠huh, imagine that.
My point is still valid though, its not over yet. People wanted a lot more than just 2h, a weapon restriction lift is not more obliterate damage, is not the wod playstyle, its the same thing now but with a 2h and just worse.
Plus a certain group of people, have been gloating, pointing to me to do so, even though they are the architect of a false argument that I never made.